Classic market segmentation strategy - develop a product for all market segmentsPinnacleJim wrote:No, I have it right. And your comment is correct also (with additional detail). The Summit Value pass only includes Breck/Keystone/A-Basin. No other resorts. I have had that pass for the last 10 seasons (though I now get the senior version which is cheaper and has no Breck blackouts). The Epic Local was originally intended as a lower cost option for "local" Colorado skiers to give them access to Vail and BC. As Vail resorts has expanded and included more resorts on that pass, it now has value for more than just the Denver area skiers. And to make things a bit more confusing, there is also the Tahoe Local and Tahoe Value passes.wannabeskibum wrote:PinnacleJim wrote:The inclusion of Stowe on the Epic Local pass is a surprise. That pass is primarily of interest to the Denver area skiers that primarily ski Summit County but want the option to venture over Vail pass on occasion. Including Stowe for them has basically zero value. But for an eastern skier this option is a big deal. Gives them the option of a western ski vacation plus access to Stowe for 10 days.
With both Sugarbush and Okemo reducing pass prices this year, K is going to have to respond in kind or lose market share.
Jim, I think you are confusing Epic Local and Summitt County Pass option -
Epic Local is all of Lake Tahoe Vail owned resorts, all of Vail owned Utah resorts, and all of CO (with the 10 day limit to Vail/Beaver/Whistler/and now Stowe) - at $639 it is a great deal - you are essentially breaking even on 5 days of skiing based on average on-line multiday lift rates across all the Vail owned resorts.
Vail buys Stowe
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
The Epic Local Pass is the primary seller to semi-serious eastern/midwestern city skiers who take one or two (possibly more, but then they might buy the epic pass) trips out west a year, and take a few weekends or day trips locally. It's a huge seller - think I heard Vail sold more passes last year than the rest of the entire US industry combined, this specific product is a large chunk of that. People may be likely to use some of those 10 days at Stowe if they aren't planning to use them all out west. If they are only planning one trip, they would be more inclined to buy the the epic local and use even more of those 10 days at Stowe.PinnacleJim wrote:No, I have it right. And your comment is correct also (with additional detail). The Summit Value pass only includes Breck/Keystone/A-Basin. No other resorts. I have had that pass for the last 10 seasons (though I now get the senior version which is cheaper and has no Breck blackouts). The Epic Local was originally intended as a lower cost option for "local" Colorado skiers to give them access to Vail and BC. As Vail resorts has expanded and included more resorts on that pass, it now has value for more than just the Denver area skiers. And to make things a bit more confusing, there is also the Tahoe Local and Tahoe Value passes.wannabeskibum wrote:PinnacleJim wrote:The inclusion of Stowe on the Epic Local pass is a surprise. That pass is primarily of interest to the Denver area skiers that primarily ski Summit County but want the option to venture over Vail pass on occasion. Including Stowe for them has basically zero value. But for an eastern skier this option is a big deal. Gives them the option of a western ski vacation plus access to Stowe for 10 days.
With both Sugarbush and Okemo reducing pass prices this year, K is going to have to respond in kind or lose market share.
Jim, I think you are confusing Epic Local and Summitt County Pass option -
Epic Local is all of Lake Tahoe Vail owned resorts, all of Vail owned Utah resorts, and all of CO (with the 10 day limit to Vail/Beaver/Whistler/and now Stowe) - at $639 it is a great deal - you are essentially breaking even on 5 days of skiing based on average on-line multiday lift rates across all the Vail owned resorts.
Then you've got the premium market out of Burlington, who might ski Sugarbush, MRG or Jay, then take a trip out west. This is much more likely to push them into a epic pass with Stowe as their primary mountain, or possibly even an epic local as their second pass if they keep their primary mountain elsewhere.
Last edited by Highway Star on Mar 28th, '17, 18:55, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
Yes, while it's similar in theory to ASC's scheme, the specific dynamics of it are far different. For example, the all for one pass for $399 was eastern resorts only, if you wanted Steamboat or the Canyons, you needed to pay $1200 for an All-America pass. Steamboat was not particularly geographically desirable for vacationers, and the Canyons was the weakest choice if you're visiting SLC. Neither of them are regarded as the absolute best in their regions. Thus, there was very little crossover to ASC's western resorts from their eastern customers. There's no way regional Canyons or Steamboat skiers were traveling to the east to ski, only in exceptional situations.hillbangin wrote:Uhhh - We've seen this before - It's Les Otten's business plan - butt they are making money.Highway Star wrote:This is crazy.boston_e wrote:Looks like the plan is indeed to have Stowe as part of the Epic pass...
http://news.vailresorts.com/corporate/v ... -stowe.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So a Stowe season pass will be $859.00.
Wonder how Killington will respond?
We've all seen some crazy stuff in the eastern ski industry, and this one is right up there.
I personally know a good number of Killington skiers who have bought epic local passes for trips out west. Clearly they will be visiting Stowe more, even if it's just for a couple day trips. Lots of people in Burlington, Montpelier and the northern Vermont region ski, but they go other places than Stowe because of the pass prices. Clearly there will be many more regional people buying Epic passes. Boston is about 3:30 from Stowe - many Boston people buy Epic passes. Many of them will be taking weekend trips or mini-vacations to Stowe, or looking for a seasonal rental or share house (there aren't many). They are going to have serious, serious, crowding problems.
I'm wondering what Vail's play is here. Are they also going to go after Smuggler's Notch? Will they dramatically increase lift capacity, say by replacing the Lookout Double with a detach lift? Lift between the quad and gondi? Expand south into the basin where the Bruce trail goes? Or the basin east of Spruce? Could they get a new lift in this summer to increase capacity?
There are going to be some more pretty big moves happening before this all settles down.
Nothing new here - Stowe will get new lifts, get less day visitors, get more pass holders, ( they allready have $ 25 burgers and $ 15 Martini's ), and nightly lodging rates will go through the roof.
Is that better or worse than it is today? Depends - are you a townie that can't afford a $5,000 family pass but now it's half that? Do you own a crappy hotel? Do you own a shop on the road? Did you like to go there a couple days a year because it's too far to be the home mountain?
Let's not forget - the chess move for Powdr is that the old man owns The Bird ( has not announced pass prices yet ) - I'd still take K/Bird over Stowe/Vail/Whistler any day of the week.......
The Vail - Stowe situation is entirely different, with there already being a huge base of Vail's epic pass customers within driving distance of Stowe, and Stowe arguably being the most desirable resort in the region.
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"The key is to not be lame, and know it, and not give a rat's @$$ what anybody thinks......that's real cool." - Highway Star http://goo.gl/xJxo34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I am one of the coolest people on the internet..." - Highway Star
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
Interesting numbers - being public - they can't lie....or make stuff up
Vail Resorts Reports Fiscal 2016 Third Quarter Results and Early Season Pass Sales Results -
Katz continued, "This season highlighted the importance and success of our more sophisticated marketing efforts. We continued to see strong growth in our season pass program with season pass revenue increasing 18.9% year-to-date through the third fiscal quarter, excluding Perisher, compared to the prior year period, and represented approximately 41% of our total lift revenue. Our growth in season pass sales was primarily driven from increased sales to our destination guests who increasingly appreciate our network of resorts and the compelling value proposition our season pass products offer for their ski vacations, while also benefitting from our improved ability to segment our guests and personalize our messages to them. We are also driving our guests' purchases through our own online distribution channels, providing our guests with the confidence that they are getting the best value and ensuring we maintain a strong relationship with them. This was particularly helpful in Park City as we build brand awareness and loyalty for a completely new experience at the resort. At the same time, while we benefit from consistent price increases on lift tickets and season passes, we are offering guests a wide variety of products to access our mountains. This provides guests access to real savings for their vacations by purchasing in advance, purchasing multiple ski days or purchasing packages of products. Vail Mountain is a great example of this strategy, where the average price per day across all adult visitors was approximately $86, excluding complimentary tickets. This is far lower than the single day peak price of $175, which is purchased by a relatively small share of our visitors."
Vail Resorts Reports Fiscal 2016 Third Quarter Results and Early Season Pass Sales Results -
Katz continued, "This season highlighted the importance and success of our more sophisticated marketing efforts. We continued to see strong growth in our season pass program with season pass revenue increasing 18.9% year-to-date through the third fiscal quarter, excluding Perisher, compared to the prior year period, and represented approximately 41% of our total lift revenue. Our growth in season pass sales was primarily driven from increased sales to our destination guests who increasingly appreciate our network of resorts and the compelling value proposition our season pass products offer for their ski vacations, while also benefitting from our improved ability to segment our guests and personalize our messages to them. We are also driving our guests' purchases through our own online distribution channels, providing our guests with the confidence that they are getting the best value and ensuring we maintain a strong relationship with them. This was particularly helpful in Park City as we build brand awareness and loyalty for a completely new experience at the resort. At the same time, while we benefit from consistent price increases on lift tickets and season passes, we are offering guests a wide variety of products to access our mountains. This provides guests access to real savings for their vacations by purchasing in advance, purchasing multiple ski days or purchasing packages of products. Vail Mountain is a great example of this strategy, where the average price per day across all adult visitors was approximately $86, excluding complimentary tickets. This is far lower than the single day peak price of $175, which is purchased by a relatively small share of our visitors."
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
This is an impressively high ticket yield per visit, though not surprising given it's Vail proper. In comparison, one can guesstimate that Killington's average ticket yield is around the early purchase K-Ticket price (~$65) or a bit below.hillbangin wrote: Vail Mountain is a great example of this strategy, where the average price per day across all adult visitors was approximately $86, excluding complimentary tickets.
"I'M YELLING BECAUSE YOU DID SOMETHING COOL!" - Humpty Dumpty
"Kzone should bill you for the bandwidth you waste writing novels to try and prove a point, but end up just looking like a deranged narcissistic fool." - Deadheadskier at madhatter
"The key is to not be lame, and know it, and not give a rat's @$$ what anybody thinks......that's real cool." - Highway Star http://goo.gl/xJxo34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I am one of the coolest people on the internet..." - Highway Star
"I have a tiny penis...." - C-Rex
XtremeJibber2001 - THE MAIN STREAM MEDIA HAS YOU COMPLETELY HYPNOTIZED. PLEASE WAKE UP AND LEARN HOW TO FILTER REALITY FROM BS NARRATIVES.
"Your life is only interesting when you capture the best, fakest, most curated split second version." - Team Robot regarding Instagram posters
"Kzone should bill you for the bandwidth you waste writing novels to try and prove a point, but end up just looking like a deranged narcissistic fool." - Deadheadskier at madhatter
"The key is to not be lame, and know it, and not give a rat's @$$ what anybody thinks......that's real cool." - Highway Star http://goo.gl/xJxo34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I am one of the coolest people on the internet..." - Highway Star
"I have a tiny penis...." - C-Rex
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
My skiing is under $6 per day for the year. Normally finish under $5 per day. Parking lot beer bill cost more than the skiing.Highway Star wrote:This is an impressively high ticket yield per visit, though not surprising given it's Vail proper. In comparison, one can guesstimate that Killington's average ticket yield is around the early purchase K-Ticket price (~$65) or a bit below.hillbangin wrote: Vail Mountain is a great example of this strategy, where the average price per day across all adult visitors was approximately $86, excluding complimentary tickets.
If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine.
Re: Vail buys Stowe
Some pretty good insights on Vail's overall strategy in this article (notably it was published before the Stowe deal was announced)
http://www.mensjournal.com/features/art ... ry-w469851" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mensjournal.com/features/art ... ry-w469851" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
From the article:ejrides wrote:Some pretty good insights on Vail's overall strategy in this article (notably it was published before the Stowe deal was announced)
http://www.mensjournal.com/features/art ... ry-w469851" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last season the company sold more than 650,000 Epic Passes at $809 apiece, generating a ridiculous $525 million in cash for services not yet rendered. There are Epic Pass holders in all 50 states and in 99 countries.
Backs up what was stated earlier if Powder magazine got it correct.
2 hours and 10-minute drive to K
2023/2024 Ski Days: 30 days for the season
Killington: 12/14, 1/4, 1/9, 1/11, 1/17, 1/23, 1/31, 2/5, 2/20, 2/26, 3/4, 3/20, 3/25
Loon: 11/29, 12/8, 12/21, 1/8, 1/19, 1/22,1/30, 2/7, 2/15, 3/1, 3/8, 3/22
Sunday River: 3/12
Sugarloaf: 3/13, 3/14
Cannon:1/15, 2/22
2023/2024 Ski Days: 30 days for the season
Killington: 12/14, 1/4, 1/9, 1/11, 1/17, 1/23, 1/31, 2/5, 2/20, 2/26, 3/4, 3/20, 3/25
Loon: 11/29, 12/8, 12/21, 1/8, 1/19, 1/22,1/30, 2/7, 2/15, 3/1, 3/8, 3/22
Sunday River: 3/12
Sugarloaf: 3/13, 3/14
Cannon:1/15, 2/22
Re: Vail buys Stowe
Maybe Killington's new strategy will be to do away with season passes and lower the window rates by 75%! Why don't they seem to be in any rush to release them?
WHERE ARE THE SEASON PASS PRICES!
WHERE ARE THE SEASON PASS PRICES!
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
GnarDawg wrote:Maybe Killington's new strategy will be to do away with season passes and lower the window rates by 75%! Why don't they seem to be in any rush to release them?
WHERE ARE THE SEASON PASS PRICES!
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
Another example of the dreaded subscription economy.........See Netflix, Amazon, Verizon, etc.Big Bob wrote:From the article:ejrides wrote:Some pretty good insights on Vail's overall strategy in this article (notably it was published before the Stowe deal was announced)
http://www.mensjournal.com/features/art ... ry-w469851" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last season the company sold more than 650,000 Epic Passes at $809 apiece, generating a ridiculous $525 million in cash for services not yet rendered. There are Epic Pass holders in all 50 states and in 99 countries.
Backs up what was stated earlier if Powder magazine got it correct.
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
the game has changed. probably lots of moving parts to consider like beast bux, spring pass sales etc. are you in that much of a hurry to part with your money. wouldn't be surprised if it's announced in the next edition of the drift.GnarDawg wrote:Maybe Killington's new strategy will be to do away with season passes and lower the window rates by 75%! Why don't they seem to be in any rush to release them?
WHERE ARE THE SEASON PASS PRICES!
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
We heard something similar last week from someone with thought they had inside inside info.skiadikt wrote:the game has changed. probably lots of moving parts to consider like beast bux, spring pass sales etc. are you in that much of a hurry to part with your money. wouldn't be surprised if it's announced in the next edition of the drift.GnarDawg wrote:Maybe Killington's new strategy will be to do away with season passes and lower the window rates by 75%! Why don't they seem to be in any rush to release them?
WHERE ARE THE SEASON PASS PRICES!
If the passes were going to be lower in price than 16/17, you'd think that K would have leaked that info to some of the fanbois here to spread it around.
Hope I'm wrong on the price but it doesn't look good.
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Re: Vail buys Stowe
if I remember right, the pass prices are usually released in mid April with the early pricing good till October. I may be wrong though
Re: Vail buys Stowe
if it hadn't been for stella to salvage a less than stellar season( pass pricing was likely planned prior to that) K would be the only place around w a chance at mid april besides jay...offering passes the last week of march w pics of the impressive superstar march stockpiling along with a campaign of while everyone else is trying to squeeze out a few more days K is looking a a few more months, as they continue the longest season in the east...SnoBrdr wrote:We heard something similar last week from someone with thought they had inside inside info.all I did was email the pass office...skiadikt wrote:the game has changed. probably lots of moving parts to consider like beast bux, spring pass sales etc. are you in that much of a hurry to part with your money. wouldn't be surprised if it's announced in the next edition of the drift.GnarDawg wrote:Maybe Killington's new strategy will be to do away with season passes and lower the window rates by 75%! Why don't they seem to be in any rush to release them?
WHERE ARE THE SEASON PASS PRICES!
If the passes were going to be lower in price than 16/17, you'd think that K would have leaked that info to some of the fanbois here to spread it around.
Hope I'm wrong on the price but it doesn't look good.
gotta admit the season at K is much longer than anywhere else, and the snowmaking is quite good also...how much more is that worth? spring pass prices are 200 bux...is that the premium for the long K season? what's early season worth? w BOGO it's 25 a day...let's call it 4 days for an even 100...is the premium now 300 over comparable size mtns w shorter seasons...
mach es sehr schnell
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'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....