Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Communicate with fellow Zoners

Moderators: SkiDork, spanky, Bubba

boston_e
Postaholic
Posts: 2979
Joined: May 19th, '07, 21:12

Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by boston_e »

So all the talk about top to bottom got me thinking about early season skiing and what various mountains have to offer.

It did get me thinking that while Killington has an obvious very early season advantage with the peak walkway and the north ridge triple, once other mountains start to open I think we may lose our advantage.

I do think that because of the mountain layout, other mountains have more to offer for the earlyish (but not very early / first to open) part of the season.

What I mean by this, is that because of trail layout other mountains actually have some inherent earlier advantages over Killington as far as what they can get open.

For example Wildcat can blow one trail and get Lynx open, Sugarloaf can get Kings Landing or Hayburner open, Sunday River can open Sunday punch, Okemo World Cup etc etc. While some of these may not be truly "top to bottom", they are certainly all longer continuous runs.

I'd suggest that in earlyish season, all of these are more compelling than skiing Great Northern to Lower East Fall to Great Northern to chute to Bunny Buster. Then once we start to get more open (chute, bunny, snowdon quad etc) we become confounded with the brutal trail merges that many other places do not seem to have (where they may just start working on the next trail over that does not criss cross with the one already open)

This is not a dig at Killington management but rather just my perception of the reality of the trail layout for early season.

I'd be interested in other peoples thoughts on this comparison.
Don't Killington Pico
alanlw9
Beginner On Rentals
Posts: 34
Joined: May 7th, '15, 11:35

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by alanlw9 »

Another advantage other resorts have is they can actually manage their terrain.

An example of this is Friday. While Killington failed to provide top to bottom for passholders it did offer open terrain at the best resort on the east. A fair compromise. What was sad was they couldn’t even get the two measily trails they had open, groomed and ready for the public on time. People made the trip from the flatlands expecting their resort to be open and ready on time, instead it was delayed almost two hours. For two trails. Instead of spreading out the crowed they waited until peak hours to open the trails.

My gripe is this happens all winter. There is no proactive approach by Killington to understand they are a ski resort and open on time. Ex. We have to open trails. We are expecting variable weather. It takes X time to groom X trails. If ski patrol is going to require a groom before opening. It should be done in a way that allows opening on time.

Instead of being able to show a friend of mine the Killington I love and enjoy, I found myself rationalizing him buying a ticket at all.

I’m excited for the upcoming year. Killington has always been my favorite place to be. I’ve started to question whether it’s Killington the resort or Killington the town and access road that I’ve really come to love.

So after lurking for years I’d like to say K is great. KZONE is great. Mike is actually great. Can we just connect the pieces and bring what Killington was for its peak generation, what all us are hoping it can be for our generation?
whumber
Beginner On Rentals
Posts: 28
Joined: Sep 27th, '16, 22:56
Location: Rutland, VT

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by whumber »

alanlw9 wrote: An example of this is Friday. While Killington failed to provide top to bottom for passholders it did offer open terrain at the best resort on the east. A fair compromise. What was sad was they couldn’t even get the two measily trails they had open, groomed and ready for the public on time. People made the trip from the flatlands expecting their resort to be open and ready on time, instead it was delayed almost two hours. For two trails. Instead of spreading out the crowed they waited until peak hours to open the trails.
Indeed, they should have just turned off the wind. Talk about lazy. =)
snoloco
Tree Psycho
Posts: 1913
Joined: Mar 31st, '13, 18:22
Location: Saratoga Springs, NY

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by snoloco »

Killington has the problem of so many different sections being added at different times resulting in all these ridiculous trail sections.

Snowdon Mountain was the first part of Killington to open. The trails all went top to bottom and were basically uninterrupted. When they added Killington Peak and Ramshead later, you ended up getting Great Northern which bisects the entire pod in two locations. That became the main route through there and it's really not ideal to lap on busy weekends. If they are to ever upgrade the Snowdon Quad to high speed, I think it would help somewhat because fewer people would be taking the K1 and skiing Great Northern into there.

The top of Skye Peak is also a huge mess. The first lifts to serve that area were the original gondola and the Needle's double. Only the eastern facing portion of the peak had skiing on it. Bear didn't exist yet. When they added Bear, the only way out was what is now the Snowshed Crossover and South Ridge. Not many people really needed to ski the crossover so it wasn't an issue. In 1984, they added the Skye Peak Quad and trails to the south side of Skye Peak. These trails were intertwined with the existing Needle's Eye trails at the top and the Bear trails at the bottom. In 1987 they added the Superstar lift and trails to the north side of the peak. At the very top of Skye Peak you have skiers heading in all different directions skiing the same trails and it's a disaster.
alanlw9
Beginner On Rentals
Posts: 34
Joined: May 7th, '15, 11:35

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by alanlw9 »

whumber wrote:
alanlw9 wrote: An example of this is Friday. While Killington failed to provide top to bottom for passholders it did offer open terrain at the best resort on the east. A fair compromise. What was sad was they couldn’t even get the two measily trails they had open, groomed and ready for the public on time. People made the trip from the flatlands expecting their resort to be open and ready on time, instead it was delayed almost two hours. For two trails. Instead of spreading out the crowed they waited until peak hours to open the trails.
Indeed, they should have just turned off the wind. Talk about lazy. =)
Sure was windy, were you out there? It was comminicated here on KZone that a RUMOR was they wanted to give it another groom. So no I cant confirm or deny that.

I was trying to provide constructive criticism. Care to tell me more why exactly the wind was the cause for the delay? Or are you too lazy..
whumber
Beginner On Rentals
Posts: 28
Joined: Sep 27th, '16, 22:56
Location: Rutland, VT

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by whumber »

alanlw9 wrote:
whumber wrote:
alanlw9 wrote: An example of this is Friday. While Killington failed to provide top to bottom for passholders it did offer open terrain at the best resort on the east. A fair compromise. What was sad was they couldn’t even get the two measily trails they had open, groomed and ready for the public on time. People made the trip from the flatlands expecting their resort to be open and ready on time, instead it was delayed almost two hours. For two trails. Instead of spreading out the crowed they waited until peak hours to open the trails.
Indeed, they should have just turned off the wind. Talk about lazy. =)
Sure was windy, were you out there? It was comminicated here on KZone that a RUMOR was they wanted to give it another groom. So no I cant confirm or deny that.

I was trying to provide constructive criticism. Care to tell me more why exactly the wind was the cause for the delay? Or are you too lazy..
Chairlifts are only rated to certain wind speeds for safety reasons. I don't know what the safety ratings are specifically for the NRT but my understanding is that generally once gusts start getting into the 40+ mph range then you'll see shutdowns. The historical data I can see shows that gusts were in the 30 mph range in Rutland until around 11am so I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the 40-50 mph range at elevation.
alanlw9
Beginner On Rentals
Posts: 34
Joined: May 7th, '15, 11:35

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by alanlw9 »

whumber wrote:
alanlw9 wrote:
whumber wrote:
alanlw9 wrote: An example of this is Friday. While Killington failed to provide top to bottom for passholders it did offer open terrain at the best resort on the east. A fair compromise. What was sad was they couldn’t even get the two measily trails they had open, groomed and ready for the public on time. People made the trip from the flatlands expecting their resort to be open and ready on time, instead it was delayed almost two hours. For two trails. Instead of spreading out the crowed they waited until peak hours to open the trails.
Indeed, they should have just turned off the wind. Talk about lazy. =)
Sure was windy, were you out there? It was comminicated here on KZone that a RUMOR was they wanted to give it another groom. So no I cant confirm or deny that.

I was trying to provide constructive criticism. Care to tell me more why exactly the wind was the cause for the delay? Or are you too lazy..
Chairlifts are only rated to certain wind speeds for safety reasons. I don't know what the safety ratings are specifically for the NRT but my understanding is that generally once gusts start getting into the 40+ mph range then you'll see shutdowns. The historical data I can see shows that gusts were in the 30 mph range in Rutland until around 11am so I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the 40-50 mph range at elevation.
It was really gusty that morning, seemed to clean up during the day and come back in the afternoon. Very possible it was the wind. In that case if they decided to give it an extra groom too that was nice.

I thought it was a nice surface once we were able to get out there.
daytripper
Wanted Poster
Posts: 3444
Joined: Nov 6th, '04, 20:27
Location: Long Island

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by daytripper »

alanlw9 wrote:Another advantage other resorts have is they can actually manage their terrain.

An example of this is Friday. While Killington failed to provide top to bottom for passholders it did offer open terrain at the best resort on the east. A fair compromise. What was sad was they couldn’t even get the two measily trails they had open, groomed and ready for the public on time. People made the trip from the flatlands expecting their resort to be open and ready on time, instead it was delayed almost two hours. For two trails. Instead of spreading out the crowed they waited until peak hours to open the trails.

My gripe is this happens all winter. There is no proactive approach by Killington to understand they are a ski resort and open on time. Ex. We have to open trails. We are expecting variable weather. It takes X time to groom X trails. If ski patrol is going to require a groom before opening. It should be done in a way that allows opening on time.

Instead of being able to show a friend of mine the Killington I love and enjoy, I found myself rationalizing him buying a ticket at all.

I’m excited for the upcoming year. Killington has always been my favorite place to be. I’ve started to question whether it’s Killington the resort or Killington the town and access road that I’ve really come to love.

So after lurking for years I’d like to say K is great. KZONE is great. Mike is actually great. Can we just connect the pieces and bring what Killington was for its peak generation, what all us are hoping it can be for our generation?
I couldn't agree more. The late starts have become the norm under powder. Even cash strapped ASC still brought people in early when needed to deice lifts or get that late groom in but now it seems like the plan is get there at the normal time and open later. I could care less that they cared more about getting SS ready than going ttb. There will be a world cup race in two weeks and I applaud their effort to get ready for it. But let's stop all these sh*t delays in the morning and bring people in early so we can open on time!
rogman
Postinator
Posts: 7011
Joined: Mar 27th, '06, 13:33
Location: In a maze of twisty little passages, all alike

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by rogman »

Early season, the elevation of North Ridge gives Killington a decided advantage over other areas. However, this year that advantage was minimized by the unusual weather: a very warm October that really minimized the amount of snow that could be made anywhere (including North Ridge), followed by an unseasonable cold snap that maximized the amount of snow that could be blown anywhere, even more southern resorts with lower elevation such as Mt Snow. It is what it is.

Once Killington moves out of North Ridge, the advantage they have evaporates. Getting open to the base requires blowing middle Great Northern/Middle Chute or Mousetrap/Lower Bunny Buster. For the early season skier they add convenience, but no one comes to Killington to ski them. Only Mouse trap offers anything resembling a challenge. They subsequently fill in with Upper Bunny and Lower Chute, which adds the Snowdon Quad and the Poma. Great! Killington spends two weeks getting the two worst lifts on the mountain open. At this point they have to start focusing on getting GN down to Vale and Ramshead open for the parking, and they need to add Caper as well. About that time, they need to start thinking about getting Snow Shed up for early December. My point is: they spend a lot of resources and accomplish little for the core clientele. It's just connectors. They may have a ton of terrain open, but every other area with a halfway aggressive approach to snow making is going to surpass what Killington has to offer.

How do you fix it? There are little things (and some big things) they could do:
1. Give up on Upper East Fall until that spring in the middle of the trail freezes. They were burying it for days, finally got it open. The capacity would be better used elsewhere, e.g. the Great Northern wrap around.
2. Put a fan gun somewhere near the top of Lower East Fall. Every year they have trouble with the last 100 feet of elevation: they stop blowing at 3500 feet, the base of the Glades is at 3400'. An automated fan gun would allow them to get that last 100 feet more easily, since it would allow them to take advantage of narrower windows of cold weather. Look at mouse trap as an example. Mid season this fan gun could provide a regular refresh to one of Killington's most terrifying luge runs.
3. Think about opening Lower Eastfall down to the Canyon Quad faster. It could provide a "real" challenge early season, and give access to another lift. Is it the most efficient way to add terrain? Of course not, however the same trail roll out every season does get a little old. Maximizing efficiency shouldn't be the only objective. Skier experience should matter too.
4. Replace the Snowdon Quad. It could be the centerpiece of the early season offerings, instead it's an embarrassment.
5. Upgrade the pump capacity up the hill from Snowshed. When there is an early season cold snap like we just had, suck Snowshed dry. No reason to be water limited when mother nature hands you a cold weather gift. Replenish when it warms up from Woodward.

Killington does a great job given what they've got, but they need to start thinking a bit outside the existing box; other areas are catching up.
Image
boston_e
Postaholic
Posts: 2979
Joined: May 19th, '07, 21:12

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by boston_e »

rogman wrote:Early season, the elevation of North Ridge gives Killington a decided advantage over other areas. However, this year that advantage was minimized by the unusual weather: a very warm October that really minimized the amount of snow that could be made anywhere (including North Ridge), followed by an unseasonable cold snap that maximized the amount of snow that could be blown anywhere, even more southern resorts with lower elevation such as Mt Snow. It is what it is.

Once Killington moves out of North Ridge, the advantage they have evaporates. Getting open to the base requires blowing middle Great Northern/Middle Chute or Mousetrap/Lower Bunny Buster. For the early season skier they add convenience, but no one comes to Killington to ski them. Only Mouse trap offers anything resembling a challenge. They subsequently fill in with Upper Bunny and Lower Chute, which adds the Snowdon Quad and the Poma. Great! Killington spends two weeks getting the two worst lifts on the mountain open. At this point they have to start focusing on getting GN down to Vale and Ramshead open for the parking, and they need to add Caper as well. About that time, they need to start thinking about getting Snow Shed up for early December. My point is: they spend a lot of resources and accomplish little for the core clientele. It's just connectors. They may have a ton of terrain open, but every other area with a halfway aggressive approach to snow making is going to surpass what Killington has to offer.

How do you fix it? There are little things (and some big things) they could do:
1. Give up on Upper East Fall until that spring in the middle of the trail freezes. They were burying it for days, finally got it open. The capacity would be better used elsewhere, e.g. the Great Northern wrap around.
2. Put a fan gun somewhere near the top of Lower East Fall. Every year they have trouble with the last 100 feet of elevation: they stop blowing at 3500 feet, the base of the Glades is at 3400'. An automated fan gun would allow them to get that last 100 feet more easily, since it would allow them to take advantage of narrower windows of cold weather. Look at mouse trap as an example. Mid season this fan gun could provide a regular refresh to one of Killington's most terrifying luge runs.
3. Think about opening Lower Eastfall down to the Canyon Quad faster. It could provide a "real" challenge early season, and give access to another lift. Is it the most efficient way to add terrain? Of course not, however the same trail roll out every season does get a little old. Maximizing efficiency shouldn't be the only objective. Skier experience should matter too.
4. Replace the Snowdon Quad. It could be the centerpiece of the early season offerings, instead it's an embarrassment.
5. Upgrade the pump capacity up the hill from Snowshed. When there is an early season cold snap like we just had, suck Snowshed dry. No reason to be water limited when mother nature hands you a cold weather gift. Replenish when it warms up from Woodward.

Killington does a great job given what they've got, but they need to start thinking a bit outside the existing box; other areas are catching up.
This is good analysis. Once Rime and Reason are done and it is time to go beyond the North Ridge triple, there is no obvious stuff to connect that does not feel like traversing trails.

Honestly in non World Cup years, once it is time to expand beyond North Ridge, I'd much rather see them focus on Skylark / Bittersweet and the Superstar pod, but then you have 2 totally separate trail pods which I'm not sure makes sense.... but from the early season perspective, I'd much rather lap Skylark than Great Northern.
Don't Killington Pico
Bubba
Site Admin
Posts: 26275
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 08:42
Location: Where the climate suits my clothes

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by Bubba »

rogman wrote: 5. Upgrade the pump capacity up the hill from Snowshed. When there is an early season cold snap like we just had, suck Snowshed dry. No reason to be water limited when mother nature hands you a cold weather gift. Replenish when it warms up from Woodward.

Killington does a great job given what they've got, but they need to start thinking a bit outside the existing box; other areas are catching up.
I was actually talking to H about this yesterday. My thought was that if they get to keep the World Cup beyond these next two years, would they increase water capacity to match the increased air capacity they have early season for the WC? No idea what it would take in dollars or improvements but it would certainly speed up early season trail openings.
"Abandon hope all ye who enter here"

Killington Zone
You can checkout any time you like,
but you can never leave

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function" =
F. Scott Fitzgerald

"There's nothing more frightening than ignorance in action" - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
rogman
Postinator
Posts: 7011
Joined: Mar 27th, '06, 13:33
Location: In a maze of twisty little passages, all alike

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by rogman »

Bubba wrote:
rogman wrote: 5. Upgrade the pump capacity up the hill from Snowshed. When there is an early season cold snap like we just had, suck Snowshed dry. No reason to be water limited when mother nature hands you a cold weather gift. Replenish when it warms up from Woodward.

Killington does a great job given what they've got, but they need to start thinking a bit outside the existing box; other areas are catching up.
I was actually talking to H about this yesterday. My thought was that if they get to keep the World Cup beyond these next two years, would they increase water capacity to match the increased air capacity they have early season for the WC? No idea what it would take in dollars or improvements but it would certainly speed up early season trail openings.
A water capacity arms race with Mount Snow (or anyone else) would be just fine with me! Week of December 4th will be interesting. That is likely when Vail will announce new lifts (and other projects) for the 2018-2019 season. With the addition of Stowe, sh*t could get real. Will POWDR (and other Eastern resorts) get caught flat footed? Yeah, probably...
Image
snoloco
Tree Psycho
Posts: 1913
Joined: Mar 31st, '13, 18:22
Location: Saratoga Springs, NY

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by snoloco »

The FIS does not allow the public on a lift over a course so if they expanded terrain over there they would end up with only North Ridge during the event. Idk if Launch Pad has snowmaking but in non WC years it could be much better to expand top to bottom that way and have North Ridge and Superstar open. Doesn't solve the problem of wanting Snowshed open for early December though.
Guy in Shorts
Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome
Posts: 3754
Joined: Mar 29th, '12, 18:27
Location: KMP Island

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by Guy in Shorts »

Tough problem to solve. Too many acres of awesome Killington terrain with a finite snowmaking supply. The experts want the Canyon and Skye Peak trails to open while the bread and butter move is to get greens and blues open toward Snowshed. Solution has always been a huge early season storm.
If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine.
snoloco
Tree Psycho
Posts: 1913
Joined: Mar 31st, '13, 18:22
Location: Saratoga Springs, NY

Re: Killington and Top To Bottom Earlyish Season

Post by snoloco »

Also you want to get the blues and greens open so that low level skiers don't end up all over terrain they have no business being on.
Post Reply