Vail Resorts

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lifeisgood
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Vail Resorts

Post by lifeisgood »

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/16/how-vai ... iness.html

Interesting that ASC tried the same thing and it failed miserably...

Not exactly the same circumstances, obviously.
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da Pimp
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by da Pimp »

Rotten Otten was at a different time, he rushed into things overextending at great risk, and history now shows that he was considerably less savvy or smart than Katz. Plus his ego pushed himself into thinking it was all about him. It's really all about the customer, then the rewards will come if you do it right with an ounce of patience and some financial savvy.

Unfortunately we will all be stuck forever with the fallout of his folly, such as selling off all the base land and both lower lodges to SP Land. Completely different goals than the ski area it sits beneath. So there will be constant stress and angst until everything gets built out and sold off.
snoloco
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by snoloco »

And they make up for the cheap pass by price gouging on parking, food, and lodging. I also heard they hand out "speeding tickets" so the real skiers don't intimidate their primarily low level customer base. They can crash and burn if you ask me.
da Pimp
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by da Pimp »

Vail can charge a lot for everything because they have the product. Awesome mountain, weather, location, lift network, lodges, employees are all top notch. So they deserve what they get, they worked hard and invested a lot of money to be at the top of the heap. I can't afford a Mercedes, so I drive Toyotas. I can't afford Vail, either. Doesn't make them a bad place.

Speeders? It is a problem at any area. It is a problem at times at Killington, too. Time & place for everything, speeding and/or reckless actions do not fit in all trails. Some say no trails.

Expect to see a new initiative this year from Killington on the subject of excessive speed and/or reckless behavior. If you believe you can do whatever you want whenever you want wherever you want, you won't have a pass or ticket very long. All customers expect at least a reasonable experience where they do not get run into or knocked over because someone else's version of fun puts others at high risk of injury.
snoloco
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by snoloco »

At all other mountains skiing too fast in a slow zone is a slap on the wrist, not a speeding ticket. And the area where I first heard about it said that they are extremely hard on park skiers and snowboarders and let the racers get away with anything. Also even if the trail is completely empty they'll still give you a ticket. I have zero respect for any resorts that try and dumb down the expert skiers, so this action earns a boycott from me.
rogman
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by rogman »

Vail resorts are well run, top notch facilities. They plow a ton of money back into their infrastructure, and they routinely upgrade lifts. I'll be shocked if Stowe doesn't see at least one new lift announced in early December for 2018. Cheap passes, expensive day tickets, it's a model that works for them. By most accounts it worked for ASC; they simply couldn't keep up with the crushing debt load. On mountain food and beverage are expensive at Vail resorts, but their lodges shine. They use RFID scanners everywhere, and while they still manually scan at the base of major lifts, you'll see their people walking the line with a pair. A picture of the passholder pops up on it so they can quickly identify potential fraud. Very fast and unobtrusive. Epic Mix tracks your lift usage, so you automatically get your vertical at the end of the day. In the slow skiing areas they do monitor speed; would love to see Killington do more of that: way too many people have been badly injured (myself included) by reckless skiers at Killington. Overall, Killington/POWDR would do well to emulate their model; Vail is publicly traded, not like their numbers are any big secret.
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snoloco
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by snoloco »

Basically everyone is following the expensive day ticket and cheap season pass model now. ASC was the first to do it and was successful, but what killed them was focusing too much on real estate and getting in so much debt. Peak Resorts recently adopted the same model, and I'm sure more will follow.

I have a pass at my home mountain that's valid at two others and I get the Max Pass add on to ski Killington among others. I'm worried Vail and that new company that Intrawest is now part of will try and destroy it by buying up as many of the major resorts on it as they can get their hands on. They've already done it to Mountain Collective. Basically you'll be forced to front them hundreds of dollars for a pass and it will make it much more difficult for people like me who enjoy skiing different places and exploring new mountains.
yiddle on da fiddle
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by yiddle on da fiddle »

da Pimp wrote:Rotten Otten was at a different time, he rushed into things overextending at great risk, and history now shows that he was considerably less savvy or smart than Katz. Plus his ego pushed himself into thinking it was all about him. It's really all about the customer, then the rewards will come if you do it right with an ounce of patience and some financial savvy.

Unfortunately we will all be stuck forever with the fallout of his folly, such as selling off all the base land and both lower lodges to SP Land. Completely different goals than the ski area it sits beneath. So there will be constant stress and angst until everything gets built out and sold off.
Laughed my ass off here..." Rotten Otten"!... when I was out skiing Steamboat 20 years ago?...I got a similar chuckle out of the sheer number of local cars/trucks with the bumper sticker....." MORE 'Boat , Less Otten ". Still gives me a good chuckle....
eagle628
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by eagle628 »

When I've skied at Vail properties I've seen the yellow jacket speed patrollers near the major choke points at the base areas, never above mid mountain. So I see them once at the end of the day, and they're irrelevent for 99% of my time on the slopes. Much ado is made about nothing in that regard IMO.
Ski_killington
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by Ski_killington »

It’s really about getting people to the resorts and keeping competition low. If you have a season pass to all the resorts Vail offers for $860, you’ll probably never go anywhere else. Once you have the customer locked in, you make money off rental fees, hotel stays, restaurant spending, shopping. Vail resorts has managed to vertically integrate the ski resort experience, and that’s really why its so profitable. Now its well on its way to horizontal integration, especially out west. Thats the investor’s perspective anyway.
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RENO
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by RENO »

Snowboarded many times at Vail resort and other Vail owned resorts in Colorado and never heard of anyone getting speeding tickets! :lol:
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RENO
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by RENO »

da Pimp wrote:Rotten Otten was at a different time, he rushed into things overextending at great risk, and history now shows that he was considerably less savvy or smart than Katz. Plus his ego pushed himself into thinking it was all about him. It's really all about the customer, then the rewards will come if you do it right with an ounce of patience and some financial savvy.

Unfortunately we will all be stuck forever with the fallout of his folly, such as selling off all the base land and both lower lodges to SP Land. Completely different goals than the ski area it sits beneath. So there will be constant stress and angst until everything gets built out and sold off.
This gives a good idea of who owns what at Killington. A nice mess...
https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/Plann ... %2017B.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
derickson178
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by derickson178 »

Vail is a Ponzi scheme. The only way they have been able to get the stock price up is by purchasing more resorts and taking on debt. It's textbook. The guy is a finance guy and he knows the only way he can get rich is to this type of model. This is a one trick pony. They don't own any of the real estate that would help them balance things out. So, once there are no more resorts to buy, the party will be over. There revenues will go flat and then drop, and the stock price will follow. The only thing that won't go down will be the debt and that will be what kills them. From an investors standpoint, I would sell the stock or short it. From a skiers point of view and a person who has skied Vail many times since the mid 80's, it's a nightmare dealing with the crowds since the EPIC pass has been out, especially on weekends. Stowe will have this same issue is my guess. Sure, they will upgrade the lifts, etc. but still only one road in and one road out. No thanks. Back when Killington had the cheap season passes of the ASC era, Killington had the same crowding issue. Aspen is doing things the right way. They are profitable, don't have a lot of debt, and provide a superior product at the high end of the market.
machski
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by machski »

IMHO, the only real difference between Vail and ASC is that Vail started with a highly successful mountain in the west that already drew high net worth guests where as ASC was born in the east then tried to buy on larger resorts of the West. The previous poster is likely correct on the end game for Vail but it will ride longer than ASC just due to the different starting point.
jimmywilson69
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Re: Vail Resorts

Post by jimmywilson69 »

When the cheap epic passes stop existing I think that will be the first warning. Gotta imagine they are a lot closer to that than not.
2023-2024

Ski Visits in PA
Roundtop: 12/22,12/23, 1/8, 1/13, 1/14, 1/17 LR, 1/18 LR, 1/19, 1/20, 1/21, 1//22 LR, 1/23 LR, 1/26, 1/29 LR, 2/2 LR, 2/3, 2/4, 2/7 LR, 2/8, 2/9, 2/10, 2/11, 2/15, 2/16 LR, 2/17, 2/18, 2/19 LR, 2/21 LR, 3/8 LR, 3/9, 3/10

Ski Visits in VT
Okemo: 12/8, 2/29, 3/1, 3/2, 3/18
Stowe: 12/9
Killington: 12/10, 2/25, 2/26, 2/27, 3/16, 3/17

Ski Visits in NY
Hunter: 3/15

Total Ski Visits 44

LR = Lunch Runs
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