5.7 Million Capital Expenditures for 2018

[Woodsrider]

Here's my original, 100% true and factual statement:

Don't believe the "Bikes are better now! They make it safe! Trust us!!!" meme. A good, well set up DH race bike from 2002 is better on DH trails than the average 5" trail bike or 6" enduro bike. Sure, bikes are somewhat better. But the biggest safety issue is that the average trail bike isn't running super soft DH compound tires (42a ST, Maxxgrip, etc), which make a huge difference.

What people are doing at Killington is not Freeride. It's called "Bike Park" riding.

It's not that "Wow, bikes are better!!!", it's that these "bike park" trails are generally easy for people with sh*t bikes and sh*t skills to ride at higher speeds. Anybody with skills can ride bike park with a hardtail. Heck, I knew people racing sport level DH on hardtails back in 2001.

Unless you are really hard pressed, I don’t think a hardtail has any place in a bike park. That is just too dangerous imo. You just don’t have the required traction. Unless it is a fat bike of course. I let my youngest daughter ride her crappy hardtail at snowshed last year just to see if this is a sport she wanted to be in and after she refused to ride a rental. As slow as she was, I was watching her back tire bounce all over the place even at super low pressure. She loved it so I bought her a full suspension trail bike, which she rides every day. But no way I would let her ride her hardtail again at K it is too dangerous even for the flow trails.

See, now this just isn't true either. A dirt jump hardtail with DH tires and an appropriate fork tune will do just fine at a bike park. Not to mention the multi-thousand post long threads on Pinkbike of people posting their all mountain hardtails.

I neglected to think about DJ. For the jump lines DJ bikes are probably sick. No way I would launch a hardtail. But clearly they are capable of massive air. As far as AM hardtail, if you are good enough you can rip on anything. I ride with guys who I can’t keep up to on their hardtail single speeds. But I thought we were talking about the average Killy bike park visitor right? The ones who you feel can’t ride the trails on an AM bike because it is too dangerous. Most of the visitors I see at snowshed don’t jump anything and that’s where most people ride. The gondi and RH lift are almost always empty. But SS has longish lift lines on the weekend. Yes people crash and yes people get hurt. But everyone else is smiling ear to ear.

[Highway Star]

I'm still sitting here waiting for people to refute the points I made, instead of dancing around them. Who knew mountain biking was so popular with straw men?

[madhatter]

I'm still sitting here waiting for people to refute the points I made, instead of dancing around them. Who knew mountain biking was so popular with straw men?

pretty sure people are just tired of your perpetual plethora of caveats...if you think the DH bike of yesteryear is the way to go have at it...everyone else is either upgrading them or replacing them altogether...

[Highway Star]

I'm still sitting here waiting for people to refute the points I made, instead of dancing around them. Who knew mountain biking was so popular with straw men?

pretty sure people are just tired of your perpetual plethora of caveats...if you think the DH bike of yesteryear is the way to go have at it...everyone else is either upgrading them or replacing them altogether...

God forbid I make a nuanced point about anything.

[madhatter]

I'd take either of these very average bikes

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/reign-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/trance-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

over any circa 2002 bike fresh out of the box w whatever components were readily available to the the consumer market in 2002...

FYI I actually have an Uzzi SLX ( arguably one of the most desirable freeride bikes of its day)w a modern wheelset and tires, lyric u-turn coil fork and fox coil to replace the fifth element that eventually self destructed... its a pretty capable bike for what it is but it's kinda tall in the seat and bars...w the tires, wheels, brakes and fork that came on it, no way it even remotely compares to either of the above bikes, as its set up now either of the above is probably better also...

[Woodsrider]

[quote="madhatter"]I'd take either of these very average bikes

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/reign-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/trance-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

over any circa 2002 bike fresh out of the box w whatever components were readily available to the the consumer market in 2002...

FYI I actually have an Uzzi SLX ( arguably one of the most desirable freeride bikes of its day)w a modern wheelset and tires, lyric u-turn coil fork and fox coil to replace the fifth element that eventually self destructed... its a pretty capable bike for what it is but it's kinda tall in the seat and bars...w the tires, wheels, brakes and fork that came on it, no way it even remotely compares to either of the above bikes, as its set up now either of the above is probably better also...[/quote]
Giant makes excellent bikes and they don’t break the bank either. I have a couple friends who ride Reigns. Both ride on the trails and the park on them. Very durable.

[Woodsrider]

I'd take either of these very average bikes

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/reign-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/trance-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

over any circa 2002 bike fresh out of the box w whatever components were readily available to the the consumer market in 2002...

FYI I actually have an Uzzi SLX ( arguably one of the most desirable freeride bikes of its day)w a modern wheelset and tires, lyric u-turn coil fork and fox coil to replace the fifth element that eventually self destructed... its a pretty capable bike for what it is but it's kinda tall in the seat and bars...w the tires, wheels, brakes and fork that came on it, no way it even remotely compares to either of the above bikes, as its set up now either of the above is probably better also...

Giant makes excellent bikes and they don’t break the bank either. I have a couple friends who ride Reigns. Both ride on the trails and the park on them. Very durable.

[Highway Star]

I'd take either of these very average bikes

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/reign-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/trance-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

over any circa 2002 bike fresh out of the box w whatever components were readily available to the the consumer market in 2002...

FYI I actually have an Uzzi SLX ( arguably one of the most desirable freeride bikes of its day)w a modern wheelset and tires, lyric u-turn coil fork and fox coil to replace the fifth element that eventually self destructed... its a pretty capable bike for what it is but it's kinda tall in the seat and bars...w the tires, wheels, brakes and fork that came on it, no way it even remotely compares to either of the above bikes, as its set up now either of the above is probably better also...

And anyone with a good WELL SET UP downhill bike from 2002 and some skills would smoke you at Killington. Thanks for playing.

[madhatter]

I'd take either of these very average bikes

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/reign-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/trance-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

over any circa 2002 bike fresh out of the box w whatever components were readily available to the the consumer market in 2002...

FYI I actually have an Uzzi SLX ( arguably one of the most desirable freeride bikes of its day)w a modern wheelset and tires, lyric u-turn coil fork and fox coil to replace the fifth element that eventually self destructed... its a pretty capable bike for what it is but it's kinda tall in the seat and bars...w the tires, wheels, brakes and fork that came on it, no way it even remotely compares to either of the above bikes, as its set up now either of the above is probably better also...

And anyone with a good WELL SET UP downhill bike from 2002 and some skills would smoke you at Killington. Thanks for playing.

provide an example...that uzzi was one of if not the most desirable freeride bike of its era...it still had a puny fork on it w extremely limited damping adjustments, narrow handlebars, 1 1/8th headset/steerer etc hayes brakes of the era were also considered among the best, but pale in comparison to what's out there now...the 5th element was way ahead of its time and quite good...

again you just keep adding caveats now it needs to be well set up and a person with skills, next it'll be a prototype bike that a pro raced and a current pro riding it vs a walmart bike ridden by a 10 yr old...

provide us an example of a "well set up" bike from 2002 that has 2002 era parts on it...and compare that to the giant reign above...( I provided links to the specs of the low end reign, they make more well spec'd ones as well)

even now that uzzi w modern parts on it ( wheelset, tires, lyrik coil fork and fox coil rear) isn't as good as the reign is out of the box...I't decent but noone would choose it over the reign side by side...

next thing you'll be telling us is that a pair of 203's w 5" riser blocks are the most capable skis out there and smoke any modern ski...

https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomm ... &pagenum=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Kpdemello]

And anyone with a good WELL SET UP downhill bike from 2002 and some skills would smoke you at Killington. Thanks for playing.

Obviously what we need here is a race between HS on his well set up downhill bike from 2002 and MH on his Giant Reign down Goat Skull.

I'm giving 2 to 1 odds that HS can't clean Goat Skull on any bike he chooses.

[madhatter]

And anyone with a good WELL SET UP downhill bike from 2002 and some skills would smoke you at Killington. Thanks for playing.

Obviously what we need here is a race between HS on his well set up downhill bike from 2002 and MH on his Giant Reign down Goat Skull.

I'm giving 2 to 1 odds that HS can't clean Goat Skull on any bike he chooses.

madhatter doesn't have a giant reign...yer probably right on the rest...I'm no DH brawler though....too fvcking old for that stuff...I still make some runs on goatskull but they aren't even remotely at race speeds...

[Highway Star]

provide an example...that uzzi was one of if not the most desirable freeride bike of its era...it still had a puny fork on it w extremely limited damping adjustments, narrow handlebars, 1 1/8th headset/steerer etc hayes brakes of the era were also considered among the best, but pale in comparison to what's out there now...the 5th element was way ahead of its time and quite good...

again you just keep adding caveats now it needs to be well set up and a person with skills, next it'll be a prototype bike that a pro raced and a current pro riding it vs a walmart bike ridden by a 10 yr old...

provide us an example of a "well set up" bike from 2002 that has 2002 era parts on it...and compare that to the giant reign above...( I provided links to the specs of the low end reign, they make more well spec'd ones as well)

even now that uzzi w modern parts on it ( wheelset, tires, lyrik coil fork and fox coil rear) isn't as good as the reign is out of the box...I't decent but noone would choose it over the reign side by side...

next thing you'll be telling us is that a pair of 203's w 5" riser blocks are the most capable skis out there and smoke any modern ski...

https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomm ... &pagenum=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh my lord. While the Uzzi SLX was a very respectable bike back in the day (pre-VPP Intense!), it sure as hell isn't a "well set up downhill bike".

Think more along the lines of a 2002 Santa Cruz V10 (destroked with a 8.5" shock and offset bushings), Shiver, XM721 wheels, soft tires, spec'd out and set up properly.

[madhatter]

provide an example...that uzzi was one of if not the most desirable freeride bike of its era...it still had a puny fork on it w extremely limited damping adjustments, narrow handlebars, 1 1/8th headset/steerer etc hayes brakes of the era were also considered among the best, but pale in comparison to what's out there now...the 5th element was way ahead of its time and quite good...

again you just keep adding caveats now it needs to be well set up and a person with skills, next it'll be a prototype bike that a pro raced and a current pro riding it vs a walmart bike ridden by a 10 yr old...

provide us an example of a "well set up" bike from 2002 that has 2002 era parts on it...and compare that to the giant reign above...( I provided links to the specs of the low end reign, they make more well spec'd ones as well)

even now that uzzi w modern parts on it ( wheelset, tires, lyrik coil fork and fox coil rear) isn't as good as the reign is out of the box...I't decent but noone would choose it over the reign side by side...

next thing you'll be telling us is that a pair of 203's w 5" riser blocks are the most capable skis out there and smoke any modern ski...

https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomm ... &pagenum=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh my lord. While the Uzzi SLX was a very respectable bike back in the day (pre-VPP Intense!), it sure as hell isn't a "well set up downhill bike".

Think more along the lines of a 2002 Santa Cruz V10 (destroked with a 8.5' shock and offset bushings), Shiver, XM721 wheels, soft tires, spec'd out and set up properly.

ok so a custom one off set up of another pricey bike of that era...

maybe it'd be in the same ballpark as the giant on the majority of K's trails...maybe...wouldn't want to ride either one of em in a real DH race...but most people at K are not racing or even riding on the race course trails...

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/older-categorie ... 93crx.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

compared to the giant that bike is super heavy and significantly more expensive new... outside of burly bull in a china shop DH riding or huge drops the giant would be the better bike...

Enduro bikes aren't going to hold up to the abuse of full on DH or huge drops but virtually all of K's bike clientele isn't doing that kind of stuff...

and I do agree that the SLX was not THE DH bike of the era by any stretch, but I had/have one so I used that as a comparison...

I remember being in awe of my buddy's gemini w/ monster T when he got it, he hucked some big drops and rode XC on that thing too...when I look at it now ( he had it at K a few yrs back) I was like wow it's not even close to as burly as I imagined it...he'll ride anything at K on the new enduro he has now...

[Highway Star]

provide an example...that uzzi was one of if not the most desirable freeride bike of its era...it still had a puny fork on it w extremely limited damping adjustments, narrow handlebars, 1 1/8th headset/steerer etc hayes brakes of the era were also considered among the best, but pale in comparison to what's out there now...the 5th element was way ahead of its time and quite good...

again you just keep adding caveats now it needs to be well set up and a person with skills, next it'll be a prototype bike that a pro raced and a current pro riding it vs a walmart bike ridden by a 10 yr old...

provide us an example of a "well set up" bike from 2002 that has 2002 era parts on it...and compare that to the giant reign above...( I provided links to the specs of the low end reign, they make more well spec'd ones as well)

even now that uzzi w modern parts on it ( wheelset, tires, lyrik coil fork and fox coil rear) isn't as good as the reign is out of the box...I't decent but noone would choose it over the reign side by side...

next thing you'll be telling us is that a pair of 203's w 5" riser blocks are the most capable skis out there and smoke any modern ski...

https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomm ... &pagenum=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh my lord. While the Uzzi SLX was a very respectable bike back in the day (pre-VPP Intense!), it sure as hell isn't a "well set up downhill bike".

Think more along the lines of a 2002 Santa Cruz V10 (destroked with a 8.5' shock and offset bushings), Shiver, XM721 wheels, soft tires, spec'd out and set up properly.

ok so a custom one off set up of another pricey bike of that era...

maybe it'd be in the same ballpark as the giant on the majority of K's trails...maybe...wouldn't want to ride either one of em in a real DH race...but most people at K are not racing or even riding on the race course trails...

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/older-categorie ... 93crx.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

compared to the giant that bike is super heavy and significantly more expensive new... outside of burly bull in a china shop DH riding or huge drops the giant would be the better bike...

Enduro bikes aren't going to hold up to the abuse of full on DH or huge drops but virtually all of K's bike clientele isn't doing that kind of stuff...

and I do agree that the SLX was not THE DH bike of the era by any stretch, but I had/have one so I used that as a comparison...

I remember being in awe of my buddy's gemini w/ monster T when he got it, he hucked some big drops and rode XC on that thing too...when I look at it now ( he had it at K a few yrs back) I was like wow it's not even close to as burly as I imagined it...he'll ride anything at K on the new enduro he has now...

The Gemini wasn't even a good bike back in the day.......

[madhatter]

provide an example...that uzzi was one of if not the most desirable freeride bike of its era...it still had a puny fork on it w extremely limited damping adjustments, narrow handlebars, 1 1/8th headset/steerer etc hayes brakes of the era were also considered among the best, but pale in comparison to what's out there now...the 5th element was way ahead of its time and quite good...

again you just keep adding caveats now it needs to be well set up and a person with skills, next it'll be a prototype bike that a pro raced and a current pro riding it vs a walmart bike ridden by a 10 yr old...

provide us an example of a "well set up" bike from 2002 that has 2002 era parts on it...and compare that to the giant reign above...( I provided links to the specs of the low end reign, they make more well spec'd ones as well)

even now that uzzi w modern parts on it ( wheelset, tires, lyrik coil fork and fox coil rear) isn't as good as the reign is out of the box...I't decent but noone would choose it over the reign side by side...

next thing you'll be telling us is that a pair of 203's w 5" riser blocks are the most capable skis out there and smoke any modern ski...

https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomm ... &pagenum=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh my lord. While the Uzzi SLX was a very respectable bike back in the day (pre-VPP Intense!), it sure as hell isn't a "well set up downhill bike".

Think more along the lines of a 2002 Santa Cruz V10 (destroked with a 8.5' shock and offset bushings), Shiver, XM721 wheels, soft tires, spec'd out and set up properly.

ok so a custom one off set up of another pricey bike of that era...

maybe it'd be in the same ballpark as the giant on the majority of K's trails...maybe...wouldn't want to ride either one of em in a real DH race...but most people at K are not racing or even riding on the race course trails...

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/older-categorie ... 93crx.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

compared to the giant that bike is super heavy and significantly more expensive new... outside of burly bull in a china shop DH riding or huge drops the giant would be the better bike...

Enduro bikes aren't going to hold up to the abuse of full on DH or huge drops but virtually all of K's bike clientele isn't doing that kind of stuff...

and I do agree that the SLX was not THE DH bike of the era by any stretch, but I had/have one so I used that as a comparison...

I remember being in awe of my buddy's gemini w/ monster T when he got it, he hucked some big drops and rode XC on that thing too...when I look at it now ( he had it at K a few yrs back) I was like wow it's not even close to as burly as I imagined it...he'll ride anything at K on the new enduro he has now...

The Gemini wasn't even a good bike back in the day.......

perhaps not but it had a huge fork the likes of which few had esp on a trail bike...and the dude could drop the hugest sh!t of anyone I rode with and pedal that tank uphill with the best of em too...he can still go like hell on the one day he might get to K a year ( kids family etc still fast on the XC rides too but I only ride w him one weekend a year now since I moved...) then again I know a local guy who only gets there once every few years on his ancient dilapidated and abused kona and virtually no one can keep up w him...

my comment on the gemini really had to do with the fork I thought was incredible then that now looks like a twig..

anyway this off topic hijack that should have been over long ago is now totally beat to death...