Labor shortage?

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Kpdemello
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Kpdemello »

da Pimp wrote:In comes the visa programs. Accomplishes a lot for ski areas, and if those visa workers were not here everyone would be screaming about closed lifts, poor services, etc. Would POWDR do anything different in the long term? I bet they would: Shorten the season, cut full timers, raise prices, reduce snowmaking budgets, FORGET about capital improvements. Just bandaids and more mulch.

So don't be in a rush to condemn visa programs, and don't expect the North American ski are business model to change anytime soon that results in a better product for you. Lets be thankful that K has someone like Mike Solimano who can extract every bit of quality out of the organization. Lots of things are getting better, just not with capital projects that the competition enjoys. I bet their long term Capex plan all goes into their 30% investment of the f'n village and anything else spent here is because it HAS TO BE done now.
This is the Wal-Mart argument. Cheap labor means lower prices, more capital available for investment, etc. Short term, you're probably right. Long term, you've eliminated hundreds of local jobs and outsourced them to overseas personnel who will accept lower wages. You've artificially depressed the wage market. On the macro level, you'll have fewer people with jobs that can support the local economy and you end up with a continually shrinking middle class.

I'd rather pay more and maybe even get less service if I can live in a world where my neighbors make a living wage that enables them to buy the stuff I'm selling. I think in the long run this is a better model that will result in better service both on the mountain and off it.
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tyrolean_skier
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by tyrolean_skier »

brownman wrote:The secede proposal was floated a couple years ago.
Concord is already subsidizing Otten :lol:
Montpelier badly needs the tax revenue.
They love lump sum payments for bear habitat.

Interesting to learn GIS' better half is a liftie :wink:


:Toast
GIS better half has an indoor job.
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f.a.s.t.
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by f.a.s.t. »

Perfect example of massive tax cuts leading to increased tax revenue.
Apple announces 350 billion dollar investment into the US creating 20,000 jobs.
This will result in 38 million dollar increase in tax revenues, just from Apple.
Even more tax revenue from all the jobs created.
Even more tax revenue from all the spin off.

State of Vermont-cut your state and local taxes if you want prosperity.
!!!!!!!!!! MAKE AMERICA LOVE AGAIN !!!!!!!!!!
da Pimp
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by da Pimp »

Half the problems with state or federal tax decisions is that voters and the louder voiced constituents want instant financial improvements. They claim to have all the answers based on only their view of the world around them. Yet none of them are actually responsible to make the decisions required, nor execute on those decisions. Some scream "cut taxes", others scream "don't make cuts", others scream for more spending back to their town or public works project. So elected officials try to walk the thin line between unhappy voters and doing the right thing in the long term. Why? Because politicians want to keep their power, and that conflicts with "doing the right thing" in just about every situation.

You can liken this type of conflict to a ski area who started out by cutting costs dramatically, lost huge revenues as a result of a lesser product/lesser services/higher cost to the customers. Their lift system is unreliable, uncompetitive and will not support the growth in market share that will bring in the improved margins & cash flow they wanted to enjoy by cutting costs.

The customers cannot vote out a ski area, it is a take it or leave it thing. Evidently many voted with their decisions to go elsewhere, an example of free enterprise at work. Does anyone think that Okemo put in new high speed heated covered chairs as a risky gamble? No, they wanted a bigger piece of the New England winter leisure sport market and invested in order to achieve their goals. Its an example of open market competition and now it pays off for them every year.
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Mister Moose
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Mister Moose »

da Pimp wrote: The customers cannot vote out a ski area, it is a take it or leave it thing. Evidently many voted with their decisions to go elsewhere, an example of free enterprise at work. Does anyone think that Okemo put in new high speed heated covered chairs as a risky gamble? No, they wanted a bigger piece of the New England winter leisure sport market and invested in order to achieve their goals. Its an example of open market competition and now it pays off for them every year.
Sort of. Killington had 2 gondolas long before Okemo had a bubble chair. What Okemo has is huge swaths of intermediate terrain. Add that to a cute village, a PR campaign focused on grooming, a family accent, and actual ski-in ski-out lodging, and that has a great appeal. Okemo is Big Blue compared to Killington's Beast, or Bourbon St North.
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madhatter
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by madhatter »

Mister Moose wrote:
da Pimp wrote: The customers cannot vote out a ski area, it is a take it or leave it thing. Evidently many voted with their decisions to go elsewhere, an example of free enterprise at work. Does anyone think that Okemo put in new high speed heated covered chairs as a risky gamble? No, they wanted a bigger piece of the New England winter leisure sport market and invested in order to achieve their goals. Its an example of open market competition and now it pays off for them every year.
Sort of. Killington had 2 gondolas long before Okemo had a bubble chair. What Okemo has is huge swaths of intermediate terrain. Add that to a cute village, a PR campaign focused on grooming, a family accent, and actual ski-in ski-out lodging, and that has a great appeal. Okemo is Big Blue compared to Killington's Beast, or Bourbon St North.
yup and a lot those who once went for beast and bourbon st north have gotten older and moved on...the beast is less beastly now and bourbon st north is a mere shadow of it's former self,...it is still the undisputed king of spring though....
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da Pimp
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by da Pimp »

Good points. Okemo knew what they had, recognized its value, capitalized on it thru investment and marketing improvements. Rewarded by a couple hundred thousand visit days per year improvement, which is sustaining year after year.

POWDR didn't really know what they had (thought they did), yet wanted more value out of it, so they capitalized on it by cutting costs, people, services. Then expected social media marketing to magically hold or increase market share just because they used to be great. Both Okemo and Killington got what they deserved. I use Okemo as an easy example, but other competitors have invested & improved, too.

I still believe that the Beast is just steps away from realizing its true potential and taking back most of their lost market share. How? Primarily through a Snowdon detachable, south ridge chair with a few new trails & glades, renovate crappy K1 lodge, figure out how to attract enough seasonal help to accomplish service and operations goals. Secondarily: If the World Cup is a loser of any measurable amount, drop it and put those Killington manhours and investments into making their customers delighted. Then do some serious real training for any employee that is customer facing (most of them are). Start creating some low cost housing options. Above all, view every situation that falls short in terms of the customer view, and not the management view. By that I mean every action plan, every investment, every bit of change has to point directly to achieving customer satisfaction. Right after that comes employee satisfaction. Today I think all the actions & plans point towards meeting or exceeding the budget, thus success will surely happen! Sorry, that's customer satisfaction only for POWDR. The customer satisfaction they talk about achieving will never come via meeting budget first, unless those budgetary goals are created to achieve customer satisfaction. They need to swivel their heads towards the customer, the marketplace, their staff. Do that with environmental and civic responsibility, and the Beast will be roaring like a freight train flying downhill because Killington will have the advantages of unparalleled terrain choices, more snowfall and snowmaking (also supports a long season), location within reach of most customers, access road of food/lodging/partying, and customer service that delights even the picky whiners. It will truly be the buzz of New England, and the revenues will swell and be sustainable.

Oops, I almost forgot - the stupid village project takes precedent. POWDR needs to invest in that, ahead of their mountain operations. So here we are back where we started. I had a vision of success, but getting it beaten down by Rotten Otten's folly which still haunts the Beast.

Despite the village mess: if POWDR cannot change their policies, strategies and execution in order to achieve their potential, then they should let either Vail or Aspen take over Killington, since both recently postured in that direction. Take your money and apply it more wisely elsewhere. Sure, being run by Aspen or Vail would come with its own set of changes that may not sit well with the average ski/ride customer. But at least it will be done professionally and with the customer number one. We all win in that big picture.
Coydog
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Coydog »

f.a.s.t. wrote:Perfect example of massive tax cuts leading to increased tax revenue.
Apple announces 350 billion dollar investment into the US creating 20,000 jobs.
This will result in 38 million dollar increase in tax revenues, just from Apple.
Even more tax revenue from all the jobs created.
Even more tax revenue from all the spin off.

State of Vermont-cut your state and local taxes if you want prosperity.
Apple accelerates US investment and job creation

Apple is not making a $350B investment, they said their activities would contribute $350B to the economy over 5 years. And that includes a one time $38B tax payment for offshore funds plus $35B of R&D and capital investment already planned. By their own estimates, they were previously adding $275B to the economy over 5 years anyway, so that's really just a net increase of $2B. And 20,000 jobs over 5 years or 2,000 jobs per year is something they've averaged since they started making iPhones.

The announcement is basically "business as usual" and "here's our one time tax bill" spun as a jobs creation program. If they do actually bring any cash back (they don't have to), I bet they use the lion's share for stock buybacks since they've been doing that with debt for years.

There's about $1T of S&P500 corporate money parked overseas, with Apple having the most. At 15.5% tax rate, that's a potential one time tax receipt of $155B if every company repatriates. We just need around ten times more than that to pay for them tax cuts. Likely even more since the CBO estimate may have factored this in.
madhatter
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:
f.a.s.t. wrote:Perfect example of massive tax cuts leading to increased tax revenue.
Apple announces 350 billion dollar investment into the US creating 20,000 jobs.
This will result in 38 million dollar increase in tax revenues, just from Apple.
Even more tax revenue from all the jobs created.
Even more tax revenue from all the spin off.

State of Vermont-cut your state and local taxes if you want prosperity.
Apple accelerates US investment and job creation

Apple is not making a $350B investment, they said their activities would contribute $350B to the economy over 5 years. And that includes a one time $38B tax payment for offshore funds plus $35B of R&D and capital investment already planned. By their own estimates, they were previously adding $275B to the economy over 5 years anyway, so that's really just a net increase of $2B. And 20,000 jobs over 5 years or 2,000 jobs per year is something they've averaged since they started making iPhones.

The announcement is basically "business as usual" and "here's our one time tax bill" spun as a jobs creation program. If they do actually bring any cash back (they don't have to), I bet they use the lion's share for stock buybacks since they've been doing that with debt for years.

There's about $1T of S&P500 corporate money parked overseas, with Apple having the most. At 15.5% tax rate, that's a potential one time tax receipt of $155B if every company repatriates. We just need around ten times more than that to pay for them tax cuts. Likely even more since the CBO estimate may have factored this in.
coming from a party that throws around " spending on tax cuts" as if it has any real meaning, I don;t see a problem w the language, though they aren't actually "investing" 350B just like we don't "spend" anything on tax cuts...

it's "fun" being liberal with "definitions"...
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Coydog
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Coydog »

Then it would seem everything I do is an investment in the economy. I should probably be paying capital gains rates. I'll let you know what the accountant says.
madhatter
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:Then it would seem everything I do is an investment in the economy. I should probably be paying capital gains rates. I'll let you know what the accountant says.
well he's gonna say you didn't actually invest anything let alone make any taxable income from it but if you;d like you can simply send the IRS a check for however much you feel you owe in "capital gains"...no questions asked...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
Highway Star
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Highway Star »

da Pimp wrote:Good points. Okemo knew what they had, recognized its value, capitalized on it thru investment and marketing improvements. Rewarded by a couple hundred thousand visit days per year improvement, which is sustaining year after year.

POWDR didn't really know what they had (thought they did), yet wanted more value out of it, so they capitalized on it by cutting costs, people, services. Then expected social media marketing to magically hold or increase market share just because they used to be great. Both Okemo and Killington got what they deserved. I use Okemo as an easy example, but other competitors have invested & improved, too.

I still believe that the Beast is just steps away from realizing its true potential and taking back most of their lost market share. How? Primarily through a Snowdon detachable, south ridge chair with a few new trails & glades, renovate crappy K1 lodge, figure out how to attract enough seasonal help to accomplish service and operations goals. Secondarily: If the World Cup is a loser of any measurable amount, drop it and put those Killington manhours and investments into making their customers delighted. Then do some serious real training for any employee that is customer facing (most of them are). Start creating some low cost housing options. Above all, view every situation that falls short in terms of the customer view, and not the management view. By that I mean every action plan, every investment, every bit of change has to point directly to achieving customer satisfaction. Right after that comes employee satisfaction. Today I think all the actions & plans point towards meeting or exceeding the budget, thus success will surely happen! Sorry, that's customer satisfaction only for POWDR. The customer satisfaction they talk about achieving will never come via meeting budget first, unless those budgetary goals are created to achieve customer satisfaction. They need to swivel their heads towards the customer, the marketplace, their staff. Do that with environmental and civic responsibility, and the Beast will be roaring like a freight train flying downhill because Killington will have the advantages of unparalleled terrain choices, more snowfall and snowmaking (also supports a long season), location within reach of most customers, access road of food/lodging/partying, and customer service that delights even the picky whiners. It will truly be the buzz of New England, and the revenues will swell and be sustainable.

Oops, I almost forgot - the stupid village project takes precedent. POWDR needs to invest in that, ahead of their mountain operations. So here we are back where we started. I had a vision of success, but getting it beaten down by Rotten Otten's folly which still haunts the Beast.

Despite the village mess: if POWDR cannot change their policies, strategies and execution in order to achieve their potential, then they should let either Vail or Aspen take over Killington, since both recently postured in that direction. Take your money and apply it more wisely elsewhere. Sure, being run by Aspen or Vail would come with its own set of changes that may not sit well with the average ski/ride customer. But at least it will be done professionally and with the customer number one. We all win in that big picture.
Nice try, but the only thing that's going to bring back 100k+ skier visits is building the KILLINGTON-PICO INTERCONNECT and associated infrastructure - lower access road parking with lift access, more parking at Pico.
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da Pimp
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by da Pimp »

Based on their own numbers from the past and some inferred numbers from the last 5 years, Killington reached 15-20% more visits per year under Pres Smith, and that was without additional express quads they have today nor an interconnect. Two lifts are now gone. More Magic Carpets. Same lodges. Same crappy Snowdon lifts.

Over time more express quads came in, the Vale parking lot was born, gondolas upgraded (but now unreliable), and uphill capacity increased. But they lost around 200,000 visits to the competition as they got better and more attractive. Throw in the economic recession, some lean snow years and then POWDR drops in to lay waste to any potential and you have the Killington of today.

Overall the cost of making snow has greatly reduced thanks to technology that cuts their costs. Plus that $26 dollar ticket when I started skiing there has gone up to $115 or whatever it is. Discounted tix are still far above that $26. Food costs are way up. Yet my disposable income has not increased 4X despite advancing my career well.

So what drew in the 930,000 skiers & riders when there was less lift capacity or parking, no interconnect, and the competition was still where they are today? Killington offered more than everyone else, they had something for everyone beginner to expert, natural advantages of terrain & snowfall, bigger & better lift system, a vibrant ski house market, and a great access road.

Today you have watered down enbarassing lift system, prices are way up, the ski house market dried up, and the competition does snowmaking/grooming/lifts REALLY well. As the neighbors grew, POWDR went into a squeeze. And still the lack of investment that makes a difference is missing. Everyone fixes old pipes, upgrades hardware, makes some minor changes. Those are mostly expenses and some of it is capital as defined, but only the peak lodge is something that POWDR can point to. And that's because they had to. POWDR relies on the fact that most current customers forget or never knew about the empty lift stands from Fiddle or South Ridge chairs, and never saw the big liftlines on April weekends enjoying spring like no other. Yes, the Cummings can certainly be proud of their accomplishments. The trouble is that they do not know what they are missing, and what the potential is for Killington.
deadheadskier
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by deadheadskier »

For the life of me, I can't understand so many of you wanting to see K return to the glory days of 1 million skier visits.

Why? June skiing is back or at least a solid effort at it every year. They still make more snow than anyone else, have more terrain than anyone else and a bigger party scene than anyone else.

It's almost like it's a Richard waving competition with some of you like Highwaystar talking about his 191cm skis he probably can't even ski properly.

Does a nicer K Peak base lodge really matter that much to you? A HSQ on Snowden to faster lap some of the flatter terrain on the mountain really appeal to you? The dream of some cheesy Faux ski village with $500K 1100 sqft apartments you won't use, but you will trade in your parking spot for a shuttle ride to the mountain instead? Do you want vastly more traffic on the trails and crappier snow conditions?

It's the oddest thing to me. The equivalent would be me thinking, yeah, I'd like to spend 30 more minutes a day commuting into Boston and park further away for more money, but hey, there's a few more nicer restaurants to wait in line to get into.

Seems to me K is pretty much as good as it's ever been right now other than South ridge lift being gone.
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Mister Moose
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Mister Moose »

deadheadskier wrote:For the life of me, I can't understand so many of you wanting to see K return to the glory days of 1 million skier visits.

Why? June skiing is back or at least a solid effort at it every year. They still make more snow than anyone else, have more terrain than anyone else and a bigger party scene than anyone else.

It's almost like it's a Richard waving competition with some of you like Highwaystar talking about his 191cm skis he probably can't even ski properly.

Does a nicer K Peak base lodge really matter that much to you? A HSQ on Snowden to faster lap some of the flatter terrain on the mountain really appeal to you? The dream of some cheesy Faux ski village with $500K 1100 sqft apartments you won't use, but you will trade in your parking spot for a shuttle ride to the mountain instead? Do you want vastly more traffic on the trails and crappier snow conditions?

It's the oddest thing to me. The equivalent would be me thinking, yeah, I'd like to spend 30 more minutes a day commuting into Boston and park further away for more money, but hey, there's a few more nicer restaurants to wait in line to get into.

Seems to me K is pretty much as good as it's ever been right now other than South ridge lift being gone.
I could go for a KBL rebuild at some point, and lifts that stop less, but yeah, my most favorite DHS post ever.
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