Labor shortage?

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Bubba
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Bubba »

Kpdemello wrote:
Bubba wrote:Can I assume you would also support increasing tariffs on imported goods (i.e. suppliers to Walmart) would also be a good thing since it would theoretically increase prices for American made goods?
Yes. The concept of free trade has been stretched to allow US companies to leverage low labor costs in countries that treat their labor terribly (i.e. China) which, while it reduces costs, results in lowering wages both here and abroad. Allowing imports from such countries without a tariff is tantamount to supporting abusive labor policies. In short, it's bad for everyone, including the wealthy owners long term, who will find their market smaller because average workers can't afford to buy their stuff.

This is one of the few areas that I find strong affinity with Trump's policies.

Granted, however, that increasing tariffs would best be done on an international cooperative level as if a company based in the UK was able to leverage cheap labor in China and sell those good in the US without a tariff, that would just get around the whole point of the tariff.
Raising tariffs on imported goods, such as those supplied to Walmart, would either raise prices to Walmart's millions of low wage customers or decrease profits and hurt their millions of shareholders, including pension funds that pay out to retired workers from many industries and others, some of whom derive income from the dividend, not to mention the many index funds (impacting 401K and IRA plans) that would be hurt as well. And we're not just talking about Walmart; the Trump goal is to raise tariffs on many goods from many countries and play a protectionist game with the world economy. When GDP growth has been accelerated worldwide by freer trade and the developing world has been helped immeasurably by freer trade policies by many countries. a reversal of that set of policies can only hurt the world's economic growth and hurt workers worldwide through either loss of jobs or higher prices.

What we have failed at in this country is to deal with the impact of freer trade on those industries and workers who are suffering dislocation as a result of these policies. Whether it be freer trade or policies to discourage coal, we should have had programs and policies in place to assist the workers affected.

Meanwhile, back to labor shortages in the seasonal resort industry, the subject of this thread. What Killington and other winter playgrounds are going through has also impacted summer resort areas throughout New England and, I assume, elsewhere. When we were in Maine this past June, we learned that the state needed far more seasonal housekeepers and others. When we were on Cape Cod in August into September, we learned the same about restaurants and hotels there as well. Did this force an increase in wages to attract more locals? Obviously, not enough to solve the shortage. Will next summer be different? We'll see. Will higher prices driven by higher costs reduce tourism? It depends on a number of factors but, regardless, letting the market work is the best solution.
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rogman
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by rogman »

I know of at least one seasonal restaurant on Cape Cod that decided to solve their seasonal labor shortage by remaining open year round. People with full time jobs are more willing to go the extra mile for an organization. One of the hidden pitfalls of Nyberg's slashing of the full time payroll was a far smaller cadre of folk that could be counted on when there were problems. To say nothing of the loss of institutional knowledge. Keep in mind that that type of loss led to the Park City debacle.
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daytripper
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by daytripper »

rogman wrote:I know of at least one seasonal restaurant on Cape Cod that decided to solve their seasonal labor shortage by remaining open year round. People with full time jobs are more willing to go the extra mile for an organization. One of the hidden pitfalls of Nyberg's slashing of the full time payroll was a far smaller cadre of folk that could be counted on when there were problems. To say nothing of the loss of institutional knowledge. Keep in mind that that type of loss led to the Park City debacle.
With all the new summer action, maybe K needs to hire some more full time employees.
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Guy in Shorts »

Killington has 300 full timers with the ranks swelling to 1800 employees during the winter season. My wife is one of the many part timers that work for there seasonally.
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f.a.s.t.
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by f.a.s.t. »

The second best way to get the employees Killington needs is a massive tax cut in state and local taxes. This, along with Trump's cut in corporate taxes will allow Killington to raise wages up to $20 per hour, not to mention bonuses. Problem solved. Make America Great Again. Make Killington Great Again.

The best way, however, is for Killington to escape the high tax burden and socialism of Vermont altogether. Secede and become part of New Hampshire. No sales tax and no state income tax. Killington employees would see their pay checks rise even more. They would have more money in their pockets to care for their families, pay bills, buy ski equipment, tip bartenders, go out to eat, take vacations of their own. Their lives would be much better. Live Free of Die. This would also increase the price and sales of homes and condos. All of this would also increase tax revenues to the town of Killington. Higher wages and higher real estate values will increase total tax revenues. More tax revenue would be available to build infrastructure. This would lead to even more jobs, higher wages and prosperity for all. Works every time. The only thing standing in the way...............well, we all know the answer to that.
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Kpdemello
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Kpdemello »

f.a.s.t. wrote:The second best way to get the employees Killington needs is a massive tax cut in state and local taxes. This, along with Trump's cut in corporate taxes will allow Killington to raise wages up to $20 per hour, not to mention bonuses. Problem solved. Make America Great Again. Make Killington Great Again.
Do you have any data at all that supports this conclusion? I don't think corporate tax breaks automatically result in higher wages or more jobs.

One thing I know for a fact is that if corps are allowed to import labor into a market from overseas, it increases the labor supply and thereby depresses wages. That's not really a debatable point, which is why the H1B and H2B visa programs are terrible for US workers.

How come when a multi-million dollar corporation has trouble with the free market system, all these supposed free market advocates call for government to do something about it? If Killington has a labor shortage, why not let them do what the capitalist free market dictates? They can raise wages or offer more benefits to attract workers.
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by brownman »

The secede proposal was floated a couple years ago.
Concord is already subsidizing Otten :lol:
Montpelier badly needs the tax revenue.
They love lump sum payments for bear habitat.

Interesting to learn GIS' better half is a liftie :wink:


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Kpdemello
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Kpdemello »

Bubba wrote:When GDP growth has been accelerated worldwide by freer trade and the developing world has been helped immeasurably by freer trade policies by many countries. a reversal of that set of policies can only hurt the world's economic growth and hurt workers worldwide through either loss of jobs or higher prices.
Unless you consider the possibility that places like China and Mexico haven't really been helped at all by free trade, but rather have been exploited. Their workers don't have the protections we do here, work longer hours for a lot less pay, and free trade advocates call this "comparative advantage." I call it exploitation. But as you say, people in the US are willing to look the other way until it hits them in the pocket book. It's finally starting to show some long term effects here, however, as quality middle class jobs are becoming more scarce and are being replaced by lower paying and temp jobs. Paying slightly more for a widget at Wal-Mart is ok by me if my salary is twice as high.
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by f.a.s.t. »

Kpdemello wrote:
f.a.s.t. wrote:The second best way to get the employees Killington needs is a massive tax cut in state and local taxes. This, along with Trump's cut in corporate taxes will allow Killington to raise wages up to $20 per hour, not to mention bonuses. Problem solved. Make America Great Again. Make Killington Great Again.
Do you have any data at all that supports this conclusion? I don't think corporate tax breaks automatically result in higher wages or more jobs.

One thing I know for a fact is that if corps are allowed to import labor into a market from overseas, it increases the labor supply and thereby depresses wages. That's not really a debatable point, which is why the H1B and H2B visa programs are terrible for US workers.

How come when a multi-million dollar corporation has trouble with the free market system, all these supposed free market advocates call for government to do something about it? If Killington has a labor shortage, why not let them do what the capitalist free market dictates? They can raise wages or offer more benefits to attract workers.
Guess you never heard of the Regan Revolution? Total federal tax revenues when Regan took office was 500 billion dollars. After massive tax cuts, 8 years later total federal tax revenues were almost one trillion dollars, almost twice as much. Currently we don't have free markets, we have rigged markets created by the Washington swamp that includes 50 million legal and illegal immigrants driving down wages, and selling out America as a terrible and racist country. Perfect example of the swamp is, in fact, the H1B and H2B visa programs. Everything the Federal Government does, turns to hell. Drain the swamp, secure our borders, end almost all immigration; especially the lottery and chain migration that has led to so much death and heartache.
!!!!!!!!!! MAKE AMERICA LOVE AGAIN !!!!!!!!!!
da Pimp
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by da Pimp »

"Big" business gets tax breaks so that they can be more profitable, re-invest into their business so they can grow. Growing means more employees, more or better products, more corporate profit taxes to the govt, more employee wage taxes to the govt, more cash flow throughout the area where the business is located.

Ski areas? POWDR? They already have profit which is NOT being reinvested back to Killington (lifts, lodges, employees, services). If anything substantial outside of budgeted operations improved their bottom line, how much of it would actually result in the benefits mentioned above? I bet only a fraction of it. Because POWDR is not doing anything about labor, lifts, lodges, services now when they are profitable. They reinvest where FORCED to, things like rusted pipes, broken equipment, things that hamper their ability to condust business as they know it today.

Remember when they first arrived? Shortened the season, cut full timers, raised prices, reduced snowmaking budgets, took out and did not replace the Fiddle and South Ridge chairs, cut hours at certain lodges including shortening the Pico week. There was profit coming in, yet it was not enough. So IMHO giving them additional profit by way of reduced taxes would not result in business growth as their customers expect it. And to be fair, how long would a ski area thrive by raising hourly rates to the numbers that get thrown around? Hourly rate still does not solve the problem of short term employment, probably working outside in winter, possibility of layoffs based on weather, benefits that are limited to skiing/riding/cheap food, work all weekends and holidays, and no place affordable to hang your hat. Higher rates just drain the budget and would not solve these problems. Personally if I was young and in a position to decide, I would far prefer to work at Home Depot, Dunkin Donuts, convenience store, retail positions. Because I would be indoors, have reliable hours, same low hourly rate, bennies based on your line of work, and have 12 months a year employment if I wanted it. Why load chairs or park cars for 3-4 months?

In comes the visa programs. Accomplishes a lot for ski areas, and if those visa workers were not here everyone would be screaming about closed lifts, poor services, etc. Would POWDR do anything different in the long term? I bet they would: Shorten the season, cut full timers, raise prices, reduce snowmaking budgets, FORGET about capital improvements. Just bandaids and more mulch.

So don't be in a rush to condemn visa programs, and don't expect the North American ski are business model to change anytime soon that results in a better product for you. Lets be thankful that K has someone like Mike Solimano who can extract every bit of quality out of the organization. Lots of things are getting better, just not with capital projects that the competition enjoys. I bet their long term Capex plan all goes into their 30% investment of the f'n village and anything else spent here is because it HAS TO BE done now.
f.a.s.t.
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by f.a.s.t. »

da Pimp wrote:"Big" business gets tax breaks so that they can be more profitable, re-invest into their business so they can grow. Growing means more employees, more or better products, more corporate profit taxes to the govt, more employee wage taxes to the govt, more cash flow throughout the area where the business is located.

Ski areas? POWDR? They already have profit which is NOT being reinvested back to Killington (lifts, lodges, employees, services). If anything substantial outside of budgeted operations improved their bottom line, how much of it would actually result in the benefits mentioned above? I bet only a fraction of it. Because POWDR is not doing anything about labor, lifts, lodges, services now when they are profitable. They reinvest where FORCED to, things like rusted pipes, broken equipment, things that hamper their ability to condust business as they know it today.

Remember when they first arrived? Shortened the season, cut full timers, raised prices, reduced snowmaking budgets, took out and did not replace the Fiddle and South Ridge chairs, cut hours at certain lodges including shortening the Pico week. There was profit coming in, yet it was not enough. So IMHO giving them additional profit by way of reduced taxes would not result in business growth as their customers expect it. And to be fair, how long would a ski area thrive by raising hourly rates to the numbers that get thrown around? Hourly rate still does not solve the problem of short term employment, probably working outside in winter, possibility of layoffs based on weather, benefits that are limited to skiing/riding/cheap food, work all weekends and holidays, and no place affordable to hang your hat. Higher rates just drain the budget and would not solve these problems. Personally if I was young and in a position to decide, I would far prefer to work at Home Depot, Dunkin Donuts, convenience store, retail positions. Because I would be indoors, have reliable hours, same low hourly rate, bennies based on your line of work, and have 12 months a year employment if I wanted it. Why load chairs or park cars for 3-4 months?

In comes the visa programs. Accomplishes a lot for ski areas, and if those visa workers were not here everyone would be screaming about closed lifts, poor services, etc. Would POWDR do anything different in the long term? I bet they would: Shorten the season, cut full timers, raise prices, reduce snowmaking budgets, FORGET about capital improvements. Just bandaids and more mulch.

So don't be in a rush to condemn visa programs, and don't expect the North American ski are business model to change anytime soon that results in a better product for you. Lets be thankful that K has someone like Mike Solimano who can extract every bit of quality out of the organization. Lots of things are getting better, just not with capital projects that the competition enjoys. I bet their long term Capex plan all goes into their 30% investment of the f'n village and anything else spent here is because it HAS TO BE done now.
You make many valid points. However, that is where competition from other ski areas come in. I ski all over New England and I see other ski areas investing in lifts and lodges. Ever go to Mount Snow, Stratton, Okemo, Stowe? Look at what those areas have done with lifts and lodges-they are beautiful. Just because Killington hasn't invested in lifts and lodges is their choice. They could build if they really want to. The competition may force them to?
!!!!!!!!!! MAKE AMERICA LOVE AGAIN !!!!!!!!!!
Coydog
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Coydog »

f.a.s.t. wrote: Guess you never heard of the Regan Revolution? Total federal tax revenues when Regan took office was 500 billion dollars. After massive tax cuts, 8 years later total federal tax revenues were almost one trillion dollars, almost twice as much. Currently we don't have free markets, we have rigged markets created by the Washington swamp that includes 50 million legal and illegal immigrants driving down wages, and selling out America as a terrible and racist country. Perfect example of the swamp is, in fact, the H1B and H2B visa programs. Everything the Federal Government does, turns to hell. Drain the swamp, secure our borders, end almost all immigration; especially the lottery and chain migration that allowed families like the President's to come here that has led to so much death and heartache.
Reagan did have some wins. Bipartisan tax reduction and tax code simplification was one of them. But tax revenue actually decreased as a share of GDP under Reagan. He also raised taxes in 1982, 1983, 1984 and 1987. More jobs per year were created under Carter than Reagan. The deficit soared and the national debt almost tripled.

But jelly beans grew in popularity.
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Woodsrider »

Without legal immigrant workers who do you think will pay for your social security checks? There are simply not enough natural born Americans to fund it. Like it or not, we need immigrant workers.
Kpdemello
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Kpdemello »

f.a.s.t. wrote:Guess you never heard of the Regan Revolution?
Often cited and like most things in life, over used to support things that have nothing at all to do with it.

It's more complicated than "lower taxes always means more economic activity" and if you look into it a little bit, you'll find that lots of countries have tried something similar to Regan's approach with mixed results. Sometimes lower taxes results in economic stimulus. Sometimes not. It depends on a multiplicity of factors, like what the current tax rate is, how much you decide to change it, the level of competition in the economy as a whole, market demand, labor rates, interest rates, inflation, etc.

There are even instances when raising taxes can be good for the economy, such as when the economy is really booming and needs to be slowed down before it overheats and crashes. I'm not saying we should raise or lower taxes. I'm just saying it requires some level of analysis to figure out the best course. In Regan's case, the top tax rates were quite high and we were experiencing stagflation. Lowering taxes was the right move. We are in a very different place right now economically speaking.
Kpdemello
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Re: Labor shortage?

Post by Kpdemello »

Woodsrider wrote:Without legal immigrant workers who do you think will pay for your social security checks? There are simply not enough natural born Americans to fund it. Like it or not, we need immigrant workers.
How about we instead rely on legal immigration by people who move here and stay and make a life, instead of migrant workers who come, collect a pay check that is lower than what the market should bear, and leave?
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