Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0x6vIAtFcI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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Gump’s primary financial success, besides being a son of a bitch, er, rich guy, was in branding. He did have a number successful real estate ventures, but also 8 spectacular bankruptcies. His Daddy propped him up financially the entire time he was alive and Gump ultimately inherited a sizeable fortune. Most domestic banks won’t touch him when it comes to real estate.

But he did very well with branding and reality TV and that does take a certain kind of skill and salesmanship.

This Is How Donald Trump Actually Got Rich - Investopedia

Microsoft was already a hugely successful company by the time they started appropriating ideas for Windows from Xerox Parc and Apple (who appropriated from Xerox Parc even more directly). Gates was not as wealthy as Gump when he started out, but his family definitely was upper middle class.

Of course, Oprah is the true rags-to-riches story here and she really is worth several billions.

O-2020
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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If business acumen is what we are looking for there are many better than Donald Trump. See Michael Dell, Michael Bloomberg. Both built empires from nothing. Way Richer than Trump and far better leaders.
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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Nikoli wrote:Way Richer than Trump and far better leaders.
... and likely too smart to wade into the cesspool that is American politics.
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
Nikoli wrote:Way Richer than Trump and far better leaders.
... and likely too smart to wade into the cesspool that is American politics.
Except for Bloomberg.
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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Kpdemello wrote: Real estate is something, in Trump's case, you hire other people to build, manage, and market. It's exactly what I'm talking about when I say Trump hired people to do the heavy lifting while he went to play golf. For most investors, financing is the most difficult part of real estate. Trump never really had to worry about it because he got to use daddy's money, so everything else was fairly easy for him.
It's clear you have no idea what it takes to run a company, or how finance works. You also seem to assume a lot (wrongly) about Trump's early years and Trump's father's business. And it's clear you have no idea how the development end of real estate works.

You think it's all golf and cigars and Daddy bucks. That failures shouldn't occur. While the details are lengthy, the conclusion is not, and MH has it right, you speak from a form of envy and assumption, not knowledge.

The reason Trump won the nomination, in addition to having a keen sense of his market, is that he outworked all 16 of his opponents. Some more experienced. That should tell you something, and it isn't golf and cigars.
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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Mister Moose wrote:
Kpdemello wrote: Real estate is something, in Trump's case, you hire other people to build, manage, and market. It's exactly what I'm talking about when I say Trump hired people to do the heavy lifting while he went to play golf. For most investors, financing is the most difficult part of real estate. Trump never really had to worry about it because he got to use daddy's money, so everything else was fairly easy for him.
It's clear you have no idea what it takes to run a company, or how finance works. You also seem to assume a lot (wrongly) about Trump's early years and Trump's father's business. And it's clear you have no idea how the development end of real estate works.

You think it's all golf and cigars and Daddy bucks. That failures shouldn't occur. While the details are lengthy, the conclusion is not, and MH has it right, you speak from a form of envy and assumption, not knowledge.

The reason Trump won the nomination, in addition to having a keen sense of his market, is that he outworked all 16 of his opponents. Some more experienced. That should tell you something, and it isn't golf and cigars.
First, your assumptions about me are kind of comical. As I said earlier to MH, ad hominem attacks are the last refuge of someone who has run out of logical argument.

Second, you think he outworked his 16 opponents in the primaries? You seriously believe that? He won by berating and belittling his opponents in the most juvenile way possible, and by running his typical bravado promoter sales job. People bought his con job hook, line, and sinker. He displayed no evidence of having studied any of the issues, gaining any level of knowledge about the complex problems he would be facing as President like health care and North Korea, or having put in any real work other than showing up to campaign stops and throwing barbs at his opponents. I'm not a Hillary fan, but if you want to highlight someone as hard working, Hillary worked far harder than Trump did.

As for Trump's work ethic, he has spent more time playing golf than any President in history. He criticized his predecessor for taking too much time off, then during his first year in office he took far more time off than his predecessor. Hello? Are you paying attention?

Edit: Here's a good article that highlights that Trump is the first President in history with no political or military experience. He is literally the least experienced President in history.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... experience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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Kpdemello wrote:
First, your assumptions about me are kind of comical. As I said earlier to MH, ad hominem attacks are the last refuge of someone who has run out of logical argument.
Look up ad hominem.
Kpdemello wrote:
Second, you think he outworked his 16 opponents in the primaries? You seriously believe that? He won by berating and belittling his opponents in the most juvenile way possible, and by running his typical bravado promoter sales job. People bought his con job hook, line, and sinker. He displayed no evidence of having studied any of the issues, gaining any level of knowledge about the complex problems he would be facing as President like health care and North Korea, or having put in any real work other than showing up to campaign stops and throwing barbs at his opponents. I'm not a Hillary fan, but if you want to highlight someone as hard working, Hillary worked far harder than Trump did.
Right. He won by spitballs and taunts, and Hillary outworked him on her vast campaign tour and frequent press conferences, and yet with 2 senate terms and a Sec State term she somehow had trouble convincing enough voters to win the election over an inexperienced opponent because there are more stupid people than smart people in America.
Kpdemello wrote:
As for Trump's work ethic, he has spent more time playing golf than any President in history. He criticized his predecessor for taking too much time off, then during his first year in office he took far more time off than his predecessor. Hello? Are you paying attention?
Apparently he has been golfing a lot.

Kpdemello wrote:
Edit: Here's a good article that highlights that Trump is the first President in history with no political or military experience. He is literally the least experienced President in history.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... experience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This article merely points out the obvious, and yet you feel the need to quote it.

I think you've made it clear how you view Trump, and what those views are based on.
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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ad ho·mi·nem (adverb & adjective)

1. (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"vicious ad hominem attacks"

2. relating to or associated with a particular person.
"the office was created ad hominem for Fenton"

When you claim, "It's clear you have no idea what it takes to run a company, or how finance works" you are attacking the person, rather than the argument. This is especially so when you don't even point out what it is about anything I have said that makes you believe this about me. If you base this opinion on your experience in business and real estate development, feel free to share your knowledge with us instead of making an unsupported claim that I don't know what I'm talking about.

As to who the hardest worker in the campaign was, you seem experienced enough to know that the person who works the hardest isn't always the person who wins the race. In my own personal experience, I've known some very hard working people that got passed over for promotions in favor others who did not work nearly so hard but had better connections, or even just better results because they were more efficient and effective in less time than their harder working peers.

One thing I do credit Trump for is being a good salesman. Someone mentioned branding - he is very good at that, and his branding and salesmanship won him the election. My fear as that he lacks the experience, intelligence, and leadership ability to do a good job of actually serving as President. I'd feel better about it if he had a better work ethic, but on top of it all, he seems lazy and unwilling to put in the effort to learn what he doesn't know.

Finally, it really disturbs me that you just don't seem to care about his blatant hypocrisy regarding a key criticism he made of his predecessor. He soundly criticized Obama for taking too much time off, then immediately proceeded to take more time off than Obama did. These are facts. They don't bother you? They bother me. It speaks to a lack of character, a lack of work ethic, and a lack of honesty. These, to me, are important traits in a leader, and it really bothers me that Trump seems to have problems with them.
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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Kpdemello wrote: ad ho·mi·nem (adverb & adjective)
1. (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"vicious ad hominem attacks"

When you claim, "It's clear you have no idea what it takes to run a company, or how finance works" you are attacking the person, rather than the argument. This is especially so when you don't even point out what it is about anything I have said that makes you believe this about me. If you base this opinion on your experience in business and real estate development, feel free to share your knowledge with us instead of making an unsupported claim that I don't know what I'm talking about.
When I claim you have no idea how to run a company, (et al) it is an assessment based on your writing, not a personal attack. That's why I said look up the definition.

Have you ever taken out a commercial loan? Your writing indicates you have not. I don't think financing is the most difficult part of real estate; exhibit 1.
Kpdemello wrote:As to who the hardest worker in the campaign was, you seem experienced enough to know that the person who works the hardest isn't always the person who wins the race. In my own personal experience, I've known some very hard working people that got passed over for promotions in favor others who did not work nearly so hard but had better connections, or even just better results because they were more efficient and effective in less time than their harder working peers.
Yes. True. But in the business world, performance is what counts. However, with all the lucky people I have met that are wealthy/accomplished, there are far more that have put in the extraordinary amount of time. Opportunity may knock, but it is the prepared person that is at the door, and knows how to open the door.
Kpdemello wrote:One thing I do credit Trump for is being a good salesman. Someone mentioned branding - he is very good at that, and his branding and salesmanship won him the election. My fear as that he lacks the experience, intelligence, and leadership ability to do a good job of actually serving as President. I'd feel better about it if he had a better work ethic, but on top of it all, he seems lazy and unwilling to put in the effort to learn what he doesn't know.
I think he is an above average salesman, but not exceptional. He is not eloquent. He sometimes steps in it and creates doubt. What he does have is a keen sense of his market, and his finger is on the pulse. Not just knowing who will buy, but the underlying reasons why. It's the same with votes and legislative agenda. He understands the issue that will carry the day, ie that border security is important, and he sees that the larger electorate can see this too. He boils it down to simplicity with "Build the wall".

No political experience? He was elected in spite of that. That's old news. Intelligence? I think you underestimate him because his speaking style, ego and lack of a filter do not fit your preconceived mold. Widen your mold. Leadership ability? Lose the Richie rich attitude and consider the size of his company. Look at the people he hires. "Oh, well, they run the company for him, he just plays golf..." Most companies dream of a CEO so skilled at hiring that the CEO has nothing to do. But of course, the CEO usually provides the vision for the direction of the company. As I said previously, name me the prior president that brought China to enforcing sanctions against North Korea.
Kpdemello wrote:Finally, it really disturbs me that you just don't seem to care about his blatant hypocrisy regarding a key criticism he made of his predecessor. He soundly criticized Obama for taking too much time off, then immediately proceeded to take more time off than Obama did. These are facts. They don't bother you? They bother me. It speaks to a lack of character, a lack of work ethic, and a lack of honesty. These, to me, are important traits in a leader, and it really bothers me that Trump seems to have problems with them.

Trump has warts. Agreed, there's an entire list. Look beyond the warts. Look at the bigger picture. I can't speak to that specific apparent hypocrisy. Perhaps Trump uses golf for establishing business/political relationships and getting to know his peers and adversaries. Or, as you seem to suspect, perhaps he's just goofing off. I'm thinking some of both. What matters is international balanced trade. Nuclear proliferation. Market stability. Border security. Competitive business climate. US treasury financial health. Measured changes towards a stable, innovative, less costly health care system.

Golf scores? I'm not really interested. The first google hit I clicked on stated that Trump had played golf 44 times to date since inauguration. Less than once a week. I'm not concerned.

We didn't have Jefferson or Lincoln on the ballot. We had Trump and Clinton. In the last year, Trump has made me more glad Trump won, and Clinton has made me more glad that Clinton lost.
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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Mister Moose wrote:Have you ever taken out a commercial loan? Your writing indicates you have not. I don't think financing is the most difficult part of real estate; exhibit 1.
I guess to some degree it's a matter of opinion as to what the most difficult part of real estate is. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. To respond to your question, I have had experience in real estate development, both on the developer side and the banking/finance side. I could inquire about your experience, but that's not really the point.

Getting the financing isn't the only issue in real estate, but in my opinion it is usually the biggest issue. Commercial loans are rarely given without significant collateral, and usually the subject property doesn't have enough equity to secure the financing necessary to complete the project. So you've got to have either a large pile of cash gotten from your own personal stash or from investors, or you've got to have other means of collateral. Small time developers often risk their personal assets, like their house. Apart from collateral, these days most commercial lenders won't even look at you unless you have some track record of experience or, at a minimum, a really solid business plan.

So yes, it's difficult, really difficult to get funding, even if you have a good idea for a project. It's why most big time real estate investors typically start out very wealthy. On the other hand, if you are already wealthy, Real estate is one of the safest businesses around, because even if you fall flat on your face with a project, the asset usually has some (often fairly significant) value. That's very much not the case with many other businesses which, if they fail, are often left with nothing but a huge pile of debt.

Because of all that, in my opinion it really isn't all that difficult for someone who starts out with an already successful company and a lot of funding to be successful in real estate. Sure, you can't be an imbecile, and you have to have an eye for a good project. But it's not that special to start out with a $200 million real estate company and run it successfully, especially when you have the grooming and training to do so. I don't give Trump a lot of credit for it, especially considering the high number of huge failures he's had. Yes, sometimes successful people fail. But Trump has had a lot more than one, and given all his advantages in starting off, I don't think he's had that impressive of a business career.
Mister Moose wrote:I think he is an above average salesman, but not exceptional. He is not eloquent. He sometimes steps in it and creates doubt. What he does have is a keen sense of his market, and his finger is on the pulse. Not just knowing who will buy, but the underlying reasons why. It's the same with votes and legislative agenda. He understands the issue that will carry the day, ie that border security is important, and he sees that the larger electorate can see this too. He boils it down to simplicity with "Build the wall".
I think this assessment is fairly accurate. He knows how to play to a crowd. It's his best skill. I'm betting he's made at least as much money (maybe more?) as an entertainer than he has as a real estate developer.
Mister Moose wrote:No political experience? He was elected in spite of that. That's old news. Intelligence? I think you underestimate him because his speaking style, ego and lack of a filter do not fit your preconceived mold. Widen your mold. Leadership ability? Lose the Richie rich attitude and consider the size of his company. Look at the people he hires. "Oh, well, they run the company for him, he just plays golf..." Most companies dream of a CEO so skilled at hiring that the CEO has nothing to do. But of course, the CEO usually provides the vision for the direction of the company. As I said previously, name me the prior president that brought China to enforcing sanctions against North Korea.
I'm not convinced by this one. I have looked at the people he has hired and it has been a real mixed bag. It's practically been a revolving door up there at the white house, and in an unprecedented way. And some people he's hired have been real stink bombs - Price, Scaramucci, Bannon, and more.

His lack of experience might be old news but that doesn't make it unimportant. As I've said before, the Presidency is an important job and having a person inexperienced in politics and government is a bad idea, for all the obvious reasons. You wouldn't hire a guy with no executive experience to run IBM. Why would you hire a President with no government experience?

I think he's had a win with North Korea, but I'm not sure how much to credit Trump or to credit the fact that Un wants a propaganda win with the Olympics. As for China, they have a history of lip service with sanctions and then not enforcing them strictly. I do think the previous administration was often weak in foreign policy affairs but I'll wait and see what happens with Trump's foreign policy before making any judgments.
Mister Moose wrote:Trump has warts. Agreed, there's an entire list. Look beyond the warts. Look at the bigger picture. I can't speak to that specific apparent hypocrisy. Perhaps Trump uses golf for establishing business/political relationships and getting to know his peers and adversaries. Or, as you seem to suspect, perhaps he's just goofing off. I'm thinking some of both. What matters is international balanced trade. Nuclear proliferation. Market stability. Border security. Competitive business climate. US treasury financial health. Measured changes towards a stable, innovative, less costly health care system.

Golf scores? I'm not really interested. The first google hit I clicked on stated that Trump had played golf 44 times to date since inauguration. Less than once a week. I'm not concerned.

We didn't have Jefferson or Lincoln on the ballot. We had Trump and Clinton. In the last year, Trump has made me more glad Trump won, and Clinton has made me more glad that Clinton lost.
This is a reasonable take. As I said before, I can see taking Trump as the lesser of evils. However, objectively picking him out of the crowd as the best for this job is something that I think very strange. I also find disturbing the lengths to which people seem willing to go to justify is aberrant decisions and behavior just because he happens to be the guy their party or faction put forward. That to me is taking our country down a dangerous road.
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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Another opinion...

Opinion | Trump Kept One Promise. The Shutdown Is Proof. - Bloomberg
https://apple.news/AC794mUtXT0-UEhJybiECtw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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I'm going to call it - I think Trump will win over this showdown. During the past government shutdowns, public opinion has almost always gravitated toward the President and away from Congress, especially when Congress uses the overall budget as a bargaining chip for an unrelated legislative agenda (in this case immigration). It's a misstep by the democrats in my opinion.
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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Kpdemello wrote: Getting the financing isn't the only issue in real estate, but in my opinion it is usually the biggest issue. Commercial loans are rarely given without significant collateral, and usually the subject property doesn't have enough equity to secure the financing necessary to complete the project. So you've got to have either a large pile of cash gotten from your own personal stash or from investors, or you've got to have other means of collateral. Small time developers often risk their personal assets, like their house. Apart from collateral, these days most commercial lenders won't even look at you unless you have some track record of experience or, at a minimum, a really solid business plan.

So yes, it's difficult, really difficult to get funding, even if you have a good idea for a project. It's why most big time real estate investors typically start out very wealthy. On the other hand, if you are already wealthy, Real estate is one of the safest businesses around, because even if you fall flat on your face with a project, the asset usually has some (often fairly significant) value. That's very much not the case with many other businesses which, if they fail, are often left with nothing but a huge pile of debt.

Because of all that, in my opinion it really isn't all that difficult for someone who starts out with an already successful company and a lot of funding to be successful in real estate. Sure, you can't be an imbecile, and you have to have an eye for a good project. But it's not that special to start out with a $200 million real estate company and run it successfully, especially when you have the grooming and training to do so. I don't give Trump a lot of credit for it, especially considering the high number of huge failures he's had. Yes, sometimes successful people fail. But Trump has had a lot more than one, and given all his advantages in starting off, I don't think he's had that impressive of a business career.
Ideas don't get funding in real estate (or any business). Equity, repayment ability and track record gets you funding. You can actually shorten that to repayment ability. Banks want to get paid back, plus fees, plus interest. Do that a few times and you have bankers at your doorstep. What you describe as hard (stepping outside those guidelines) is what I would call how the real world works, so calling it most difficult is an inexperienced viewpoint.

The rest of your statement establishes that Trump had significant advantages in education, and leveraging his father's help. Agreed. As I said before, is Shiffrin any less of an athlete because of her parent's help?
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Re: Leftists frothing over Oprah 2020

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Mister Moose wrote: Trump has warts. Agreed, there's an entire list. Look beyond the warts. Look at the bigger picture. I can't speak to that specific apparent hypocrisy. Perhaps Trump uses golf for establishing business/political relationships and getting to know his peers and adversaries. Or, as you seem to suspect, perhaps he's just goofing off. I'm thinking some of both. What matters is international balanced trade guess China isn't a currency manipulator after all . Nuclear proliferation I'm sure we all feel safer now that it appears NK can nuke the East Coast Market stability we'll see if Gump matches Obama Border security still waiting for that check from Mexico. Competitive business big business gets a huge windfall, crumbs for the little guys. US treasury financial health $1.5T to be added to the debt. Measured changes towards a stable, innovative, less costly health care system. ObamaCare more popular than ever, record enrollments
Mister Moose wrote: We didn't have Jefferson or Lincoln on the ballot. We had Trump and Clinton. In the last year, Trump has made me more glad Trump won, and Clinton has made me more glad that Clinton lost.
54% of voters chose Clinton. As far as being glad Gump won given the events over the last year:

Amid record low one-year approval rating, half of Americans question Trump's mental stability: POLL

Just 36 percent of Americans approve of Trump’s job performance, while 58 percent disapprove, essentially unchanged since midsummer. Next lowest at one year was Gerald Ford’s 45 percent in 1975; average pre-Trump approval -- since Harry Truman’s presidency -- is 63 percent.

...

Trump’s signature achievement, the new tax law, is unpopular; 60 percent say it favors the wealthy (even most well-off Americans say so), and the public by a 12-point margin, 46 to 34 percent, says it’s a bad thing for the country. At the same time, a majority celebrates his most prominent failure, on Obamacare; 57 percent say the program’s continuation is a good thing.

...

A vast 87 percent support the DACA immigration program that Trump ended and whose fate in Congress is uncertain -- including two-thirds of strong conservatives, three-quarters of evangelical white Protestants and as many Republicans, core Trump groups. And 63 percent overall oppose a U.S.-Mexico border wall, essentially unchanged since before the 2016 election.

...


Trump’s ratings might be yet worse were it not for sharply improved economic sentiment. Fifty-eight percent say the economy is in good (or even excellent) shape, the most in 17 years. But just 38 percent say the Trump administration deserves credit; many more, 50 percent, credit the Obama administration. It’s axiomatic that a successful economy doesn’t guarantee presidential popularity, it merely makes it possible -- and Trump’s other challenges tie his shoelaces.
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