Some soldiers are unhappy with the Army

[tirolerpeter]

I’ve been busy, but "better late than never" (Anonymous).

ExtremeJibber...I know it is a bit risky to debate someone who has taken HIS101, but since I earned a BA in Political Science, an MA in Liberal (not what you think that word means) Studies, taught history and economics for over thirty years, read a book or two, and did my time on the ground in Vietnam, I’ll take a chance.

I’m not offended by comparisons to Michael Moore. I saw his movie, and it squared well with the reading and research I have done on the topics that it (barely) touched on. Read “House of Bush – House of Saud” as one example. I would be offended if you compared me to the likes of Limbaugh, O’Reilly, or Hannity. Those characters pass feces through both their oral and anal orifices and get people who have read little, experienced less, and don’t know how to do their own critical thinking to believe the stuff they pass.

Regarding Santayana: Even Dubya’s father, who actually has knowledge of foreign affairs garnered outside barroom conversations, and actually worked as CIA director tried do tell him not to invade Iraq (Find and read Bush Sir’s book on this). Furthermore, Dubya’s naïve notion that he can take a society that is socially and philosophically rooted in a medieval value system (Read that as: Islam) that is antithetical to all western notions of “liberty, equality, and fraternity” can be transformed (with the use of military force no less) literally overnight into a democracy is the height of stupidity. Compound this stupidity with the use of a Christian religious term like “crusade,” and you are guaranteed to incite not just Iraqis against us, but much of the Muslim world.

I am not implying that this war is wrong. I am clearly and unequivocally stating that this is a stupid, ill conceived, badly executed war undertaken for cynical reasons. The Chickenhawks and their supporters are making a financial killing while they are killing our troops. You were likely not even a gleam in your parents’ eyes when war profiteers of similar ilk (despite former President Eisenhower’s’ prescient warnings about what he referred to as the influence of the “Military Industrial Complex.”) were making billions during the Vietnam War period.

As to your references to Clinton and Jeb Bush, Poe (Where the heck did that come in?), and Lincoln: Look up “non sequitur” and see how it applies it to your statements.

Finally, do we need to “fight terrorism?” Of course we do. We just need to do it intelligently with the cooperation of the many nations of the world that are also impacted by this phenomenon. We need to do it in a way that promotes our values and ideals as something to copy rather than as objects of international fear and contempt. We may be the biggest guy on the block, but we still need to convince the rest of the world to view us as part of the solution rather than as part of the problem.

Thanks for playing TP

[XtremeJibber2001]

Lol.....it's ok....I can tell you know much more about me when it comes to politics and history. As I communicated earlier, I haven't learned much about history, and considering my age and major in college I don't learn much as I'd like to.

Sure I'd like to read a few books....although the books I read would be as biased as a few you've read (I'm stipulating, I didn't look).

I simply did not appreciate you talking down to me like I'm some ignorant child who doesn't know his left from his right. Take a look at society today and probably more than 60% of the 18-20 year old people in this nation know absolutly nothing about politics. The look to michael moore for "facts". Sure I listen to Limbaugh and Hannity....I have also search some things they've said and realized they didn't give me the whole story. Then again who has the real story, CNN, FOX, BBC, NY Times?

I just wish more people could become educated in this manner...you took me by surprise by this last post. The first post you sounded like some immature child asking hold old I was, talking down to me. This post you act your age and show your knowledge.

I think you took my joke too far....and haven't evaluated the rest of America's youth and seen who very uneducated we are when it comes to politics. I blame it on teachers mostly, also people like hannity, moore, dan rather also help skew the truth. Although I like how hannity debates with combs for a good display of "both sides".

Lastly, you should try more to open youths eyes, rather than talk down to us. It's clear people of your age and education know more than us....share it with us...don't talk down to us like your some arrogant prick.

I know a lot about computers...but as you can see by the forums...i try to help everyone...not talk down to them because they don't know as much....but that's just my .02

Perhaps I miss understood you.

E

[tirolerpeter]

Lol.....it's ok....I can tell you know much more about me when it comes to politics and history. As I communicated earlier, I haven't learned much about history, and considering my age and major in college I don't learn much as I'd like to.

Sure I'd like to read a few books....although the books I read would be as biased as a few you've read (I'm stipulating, I didn't look).

I simply did not appreciate you talking down to me like I'm some ignorant child who doesn't know his left from his right. Take a look at society today and probably more than 60% of the 18-20 year old people in this nation know absolutly nothing about politics. The look to michael moore for "facts". Sure I listen to Limbaugh and Hannity....I have also search some things they've said and realized they didn't give me the whole story. Then again who has the real story, CNN, FOX, BBC, NY Times?

I just wish more people could become educated in this manner...you took me by surprise by this last post. The first post you sounded like some immature child asking hold old I was, talking down to me. This post you act your age and show your knowledge.

I think you took my joke too far....and haven't evaluated the rest of America's youth and seen who very uneducated we are when it comes to politics. I blame it on teachers mostly, also people like hannity, moore, dan rather also help skew the truth. Although I like how hannity debates with combs for a good display of "both sides".

Lastly, you should try more to open youths eyes, rather than talk down to us. It's clear people of your age and education know more than us....share it with us...don't talk down to us like your some arrogant prick.

I know a lot about computers...but as you can see by the forums...i try to help everyone...not talk down to them because they don't know as much....but that's just my .02

Perhaps I miss understood you.

E

Let's dispense with ad homi nem attacks of fellow posters and focus on the issues and facts (admittedly, as we each perceive them).

All books and sources of information are inherently biased. The trick is to evaluate each with some sense of where the source's biases lie. As you so correctly assert, most of our youth are woefully ignorant of not only political issues, but of basic historical information. It is interesting that you blame teachers for this situation. Try to get the average male teen (and beyond) to actually read and analyze anything other than the statistics of last night’s game. Try to get any teen to stretch even their aural attention span beyond two minutes. If you check, you will discover that even on the most credible news programs no situation or story of even the greatest significance exceeds two or maybe three minutes of narrative. Studies have shown that the viewers will not accede to being talked at for longer. How does any news source get beyond that? Compound this tendency with a total lack of reading (beyond fashion, sports, and human interest stories like the titillating details of a crime) and you have a voting population ignorant of anything beyond “sound bites.”

A small digression, and then I’ll move on. Over the years, parents often asked me how they could encourage their children to read more. My first response to that was a question. “What was the last book you read?” Oh, you don’t remember? “What are you reading now?” Nothing at the moment?” Do you get a daily newspaper, any weekly news magazines, etc.?” Oh, TV Guide. “Do you watch the nightly news (any one of them) with your kids and discuss the issues with your children at a level appropriate to their age?” Oh, you watch (fill in the blank) reruns because the news annoys you? Duh?

Actually, and not to patronize you, I am pleased that you have taken the time to involve yourself in forum discussions like this. It is evidence that you do think and care about the issues that are raised. If I knew how to “open youth’s eyes,” as you put it, I would! I only suggest that you, and of course others on the forum, would focus more on the issues and the facts behind them, then on “flaming” each other. And yes, I have been guilty of that too at times.

[XtremeJibber2001]

Let's dispense with ad homi nem attacks of fellow posters and focus on the issues and facts (admittedly, as we each perceive them).

All books and sources of information are inherently biased. The trick is to evaluate each with some sense of where the source's biases lie. As you so correctly assert, most of our youth are woefully ignorant of not only political issues, but of basic historical information. It is interesting that you blame teachers for this situation. Try to get the average male teen (and beyond) to actually read and analyze anything other than the statistics of last night’s game. Try to get any teen to stretch even their aural attention span beyond two minutes. If you check, you will discover that even on the most credible news programs no situation or story of even the greatest significance exceeds two or maybe three minutes of narrative. Studies have shown that the viewers will not accede to being talked at for longer. How does any news source get beyond that? Compound this tendency with a total lack of reading (beyond fashion, sports, and human interest stories like the titillating details of a crime) and you have a voting population ignorant of anything beyond “sound bites.”

A small digression, and then I’ll move on. Over the years, parents often asked me how they could encourage their children to read more. My first response to that was a question. “What was the last book you read?” Oh, you don’t remember? “What are you reading now?” Nothing at the moment?” Do you get a daily newspaper, any weekly news magazines, etc.?” Oh, TV Guide. “Do you watch the nightly news (any one of them) with your kids and discuss the issues with your children at a level appropriate to their age?” Oh, you watch (fill in the blank) reruns because the news annoys you? Duh?

Actually, and not to patronize you, I am pleased that you have taken the time to involve yourself in forum discussions like this. It is evidence that you do think and care about the issues that are raised. If I knew how to “open youth’s eyes,” as you put it, I would! I only suggest that you, and of course others on the forum, would focus more on the issues and the facts behind them, then on “flaming” each other. And yes, I have been guilty of that too at times.

I agree that most news source and talk show hosts are biased and one must look at where they are getting their information to discover the truth. While I also agree that youth's attention span is something less than two minutes.

I figured you would find me blaming teachers ironic to a degree. But think of this....Although you may not be guilty of this, half of my teachers in the area of History/English/Arts do this. They present material to us in a biased way, knowingly most of us won't open a book, they risk skewing our opinion with there short biased lessons or lectures. For example, after the election my IS professor proclaimed that since Bush was re-elected jobs in IS are doomed and we should consider advancing ourselves to other areas of learning.

Other examples include a presentation a professor did in my technical writing class. Where he presented "poor examples of technical writing" and he presented Colin Powell's speech to the UN. He presented it as "poor" because it lacked factual information. Meanwhile, he didn't present evidence to show it was "not factual" and of course you know professors....if I spoke up my grade would have been doomed.

These are just a few examples, but this is at a college level.

I am guilty in the sense that in highschool i didn't read, I didn't engage in political disputes nor did I know anything about it.

Still to this day friends of mine, who listen to my political rants frequently, still brush it off as if it shouldn't concern them. Most of todays youth does not realize that our Presdent can change our Economy, our Nation, and the world.

I think part of the reason I read now and I am interested in politics is because my family is, and I'm alos interested in the future of our country. My parents always read books, and similar to you my mother has a BA and MA +30. So I come from a well rounded background of people interested in politics, education, reading, and the like.

I'm pressed for time, but that's it for now...glad we see somethings from the same viewpoint. Although I made a hasty generalization about teachers, it was not my intention to label all teachers the reason the youth receives biased information...but some teachers do contribute to youths biased if they don't have much political interest and do minimal reasearch.

E

[Cityskier]

XJ2001 - You and only you are responsible for how informed or uninformed you are. We've all had dumbass teachers who made our lives miserable, but even in their ineptitude they introduced us to the door. Whether or not we chose to walk through that door was our own choice. Good teachers make walking through that door and learning easy. But sometimes you have to work for it. We live in an age with unprecedented access to information. Use that information to form your opinions. Don't form them from the 2 minute snippets of information that we are force fed.

There are a lot of opinions about what is going on in the world. Watch the video on this webpage. (Click Knife Party to get to the movie page) If nothing else enjoy the animation.

[Dr. NO]

XJ2001 - You and only you are responsible for how informed or uninformed you are. We've all had dumbass teachers who made our lives miserable, but even in their ineptitude they introduced us to the door. Whether or not we chose to walk through that door was our own choice. Good teachers make walking through that door and learning easy. But sometimes you have to work for it. We live in an age with unprecedented access to information. Use that information to form your opinions. Don't form them from the 2 minute snippets of information that we are force fed.

There are a lot of opinions about what is going on in the world. Watch the video on this webpage. (Click Knife Party to get to the movie page) If nothing else enjoy the animation.

Choose? good and bad? DANG, city, you have some awsome and valid points here. SCARY ! But, you are correct. YOu can choose to listen and not learn, or Listen, Learn and Explore on your own. THAT is how America became what it is today. WE learned to Listen, Learn and EXPLORE on our own ! A very valuable lesson !

[XtremeJibber2001]

XJ2001 - You and only you are responsible for how informed or uninformed you are. We've all had dumbass teachers who made our lives miserable, but even in their ineptitude they introduced us to the door. Whether or not we chose to walk through that door was our own choice. Good teachers make walking through that door and learning easy. But sometimes you have to work for it. We live in an age with unprecedented access to information. Use that information to form your opinions. Don't form them from the 2 minute snippets of information that we are force fed.

There are a lot of opinions about what is going on in the world. Watch the video on this webpage. (Click Knife Party to get to the movie page) If nothing else enjoy the animation.

I understand exactly what you mean. I tend to not to blame anyone for "misinformation".....although lets be frank...most people my age aren't like me. Most aren't engaged in politics, few are interested in history, many of the people my opposed to this war thing we declared war for oil (they have no clue it was initially because of violated UN sanction and WMD's). When it comes to most of todays "youth" I think they do listen to those 2 minute snippets...and base there information around Dan Rather or Limbaugh.....I'll be honest...being a college student and working part-time, I don't have much time to read additional books. I do however have time to watch various news channels during lunch and radio stations during rush hour in philly....this gives me a lot more info than the person who bases their political party and vote on what they've heard from Howard Stern.

The point of the above paragraphs/posts was to this comment:

Hey, how old are you extremejibber2001"? Im sure they haven't covered this in the videos that pass for history lessons these days, so here goes:

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana

Especially the stupid mistakes. Tirolerpeter

I simply wanted to let Tirolerpeter know that I should not be labeld in the category he so hastly (at first) put me in. I am not today's "typical young citizen"....I try to get involved when I can. I've joined College Republicans (a very large and notable group) but many of it's meeting and debates take place at a time that a working person can not make.

I hope this helps you/tirol understand where I am coming from.

E

[Cityskier]

Choose? good and bad? DANG, city, you have some awsome and valid points here. SCARY ! But, you are correct. YOu can choose to listen and not learn, or Listen, Learn and Explore on your own. THAT is how America became what it is today. WE learned to Listen, Learn and EXPLORE on our own ! A very valuable lesson !

Sorry to scare you Doc! Sometimes the synapses fire in a useful pattern. Or maybe I just had the right chemical balance at that moment...

[RJSVermont]

See story:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... _lawsuit_1

Just saw that on FOX. I haven't read the story....but if they don't like it...why would they have joined?

A judge was on FOX saying these soldiers really don't have much of a case.

Hey Jib How come you haven't joined the armed forces yet? You seem like an outspoken young patriotic fellow? You should go over there and fight for this great country. My uncle, who is a disabled Vietnam Vet and has severely discomforting medical problems due to shrapnel injuries was telling me at dinner recently how great it must be to serve for guys like Rumsfield. I mean you seem to have all the answers here. You know what's funny though, you talk about college profs that instill their political opinions in their teaching who's to say you wouldn't do the same. You have posted more pro-republican/Bush/etc. bs than anyone else here I think. So in a way, your posts (Biased as they may be) are no different than your teachers left thinking opinions. Everything in the world is biased bro, even mother nature. It is our duty to take every side into consideration and come out with a logical, reasonable, and intelligent opinion of our own, that is what America is based upon. Don't sit here and complain about teachers putting their political bs into your education. If you don't like sitting through college, I'm sure there are plenty of soldiers in Iraq that would love to trade places with you right now.

Grrr don't even know why I bother.

[XtremeJibber2001]

Hey Jib How come you haven't joined the armed forces yet? You seem like an outspoken young patriotic fellow? You should go over there and fight for this great country.

We've debated this already in other threads.....about 3 or 4 months ago...

My uncle, who is a disabled Vietnam Vet and has severely discomforting medical problems due to shrapnel injuries was telling me at dinner recently how great it must be to serve for guys like Rumsfield.

I'm sorry to hear that. He served his country and I am thankful for the freedoms he helped provide.

I mean you seem to have all the answers here.

I posted a news article....? It's from yahoo....not me....in fact I only repeated what I heard from the news....didn't say it was fact....nor did I allude to any so called "answers" you claim I have?

You know what's funny though, you talk about college profs that instill their political opinions in their teaching who's to say you wouldn't do the same.

I never said I wouldn't....but if I did I would do it in a forum where students could debate with one another...not preach to them without giving them a chance to share their views....

You have posted more pro-republican/Bush/etc. bs than anyone else here I think. So in a way, your posts (Biased as they may be) are no different than your teachers left thinking opinions.

I'm a republican....of course many things I post would be pro-Bush etc. However, most of my posts have links to news sources with my "opinion" added. I understand the media is biased....so I guess that's how you conclude I was starting "biased" threads?

Everything in the world is biased bro, even mother nature.

If you read all the posts....we've coverd that "bro". I don't see how mother nature is "biased", perhaps you can explain?

It is our duty to take every side into consideration and come out with a logical, reasonable, and intelligent opinion of our own, that is what America is based upon.

Agreed....never really stated otherwise? Maybe this is just another FYI of yours?

Don't sit here and complain about teachers putting their political bs into your education.

I pay for it, so I can complain as much as I'd like. However, I never complained about it, I simply stated that america's youth that is not involved in politics will take what proffesors/teachers say as fact because most of today's youth is too lazy to look it up for themselves. So what I said was "some" teachers contribute to the biased political view points so of americas youth posses.

If you don't like sitting through college, I'm sure there are plenty of soldiers in Iraq that would love to trade places with you right now.

Never said I didn't like it? Another FYI I guess? I'm sure many of my friends in Iraq would love to trade places...perhaps when I'm out of college I will get a job where I can help out men and women in the armed forces.

Grrr don't even know why I bother.

As I stated earlier....talking down to me doesn't help your explinations. I don't understand why "some" of you feel the need to talk down to me....if you want me to understand something, or you want to share your knowledge with me...then do so. Like you said....everythings biased....but getting knowledge from different people/places can help us have a more level view of things.

E

[Pedro]

Hey Jib How come you haven't joined the armed forces yet?
Grrr don't even know why I bother.

Hey RJS, What branch were you in?

[BigSpencer]

... Force a Democracy on the people eh'?

..That's it for my political rant :)

[CAPBOY]

... Force a Democracy on the people eh'?

..That's it for my political rant :)

Is itt a rant or just an observation of irony?