FEMA

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madhatter
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Re: FEMA

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:
madhatter wrote: bridges go over water more often than not, most bridges connect two rds, railways etc. Therefore both bridges and roads, almost by default, are built in areas prone to flooding. Now a house in a drainage, say a former camp converted before new zoning went into effect, maybe offer a buyout in exchange for quit claim and release to the state town fed whatever. What's so wrong with that logic? Keep the floodway open for high water and prevent extra debris from clogging up bridges, culverts etc down stream. A friend in town who has had flood damage more than once ,told me he will not be allowed to rebuild. I can see why. ( not sure if he is speculating or knows for sure) You can;t build w/in 50 ft off any river, stream etc. in stockbridge currently. 25 yrs ago? you could sh*t in your yard. Things change why not do something that makes sense from an economic, ecological and personal safety point of view? There are many rds up here that have half a dozen households and half a dozen bridges and culverts ( or more) over 6 + miles of rd. We should just throw whatever money and resources it takes to gain access to that destroyed, remote area? Why do you libs intentionally look for a fight all the goddam time? its really annoying.
So it's ok to rebuild bridges and roads because they're just gonna flood by default, but we cannot allow people to rebuild their homes in certain areas because they might fall victim to a natural disaster every 100 years or so. I guess if Powdr accepts federal/state money or loans, they shouldn't be allowed to rebuild KBL in its current location.

The 50 ft setback regulation (common to many Vermont towns) applies to roadways, property borders and right of ways, including rivers and streams. As far as I know, flooding was not the primary or even secondary concern of the provision.

What I find truly annoying is the constant whining by some right wingers about too big or too much government in their own lives but these same folks are more than happy to have government regulate in great detail the behavior of other people's lives.

how's this rebuild on your dime then? I got no problem w anyone fending for themselves. I totally advocate that, stand by that and live by that. However until I have the option of not contributing to rebuild, for example lillieville or the place mentioned in the above article for the 5th 100 yr event in the last 10yrs which is obviously no longer a 100 yr event, I am going to offer a proposed solution. I do not give a sh*t what anyone does with their own money. perhaps you haven;t read any of the other dozen or so posts I posted on this subject. I live right in the middle of all this, I have been volunteering all week. I own a primary home, rental properties and timber acreage here so I'm certainly not FOR shutting down the entire area. But as has been mentioned numerous times VT does not contribute as a state what it will take just to repair rt 4 let alone hundreds of side roads that go for miles, have numerous water crossings and half a dozen households. There are places that will cost 100's of thousands of dollars just get a road to a half dozen people. who will pay for that? our town of 600? Residents of arizona? More than one person has commented on a place they know of that "probably should not have been approved to begin with". But when a camp becomes a home no one seems to notice. Unless you are here in person seeing the damage ( pics are totally underwhelming by comparison) you just can not grasp the scope of things. and seriously with roads and bridges built in flood areas? how else do you propose water be crossed? Boat? Plenty of places to build houses away from water, hard to get anywhere w/o bridges, rds etc. Or is everyone supposed remain within whatever boundaries are created by water. That whole argument makes zero sense except to argue. and pretty sure KBL is not actually in a flood plain no one said anything about every property that got wet has to be abandoned, but again when its 5 times in 10 yrs its no longer a 100 yr event. Read more, understand more, argue less. see this link for just one example.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 1346224002
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Coydog
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Re: FEMA

Post by Coydog »

I was unaware the Killington region has experienced major flooding 5 times in the past 10 years. This comes as a real shock to me, since for the past 13 years this is the only time I can recall state highways washing out, government helicopters flying about and entire towns being cutoff from the outside world. Guess I haven't been paying very close attention. Could you please post the information you have on these recent past natural disasters?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are in favor of restoring services to the areas where you have a financial interest, but find it wasteful and too expensive to rebuild in neighborhoods where fewer people live or work or have less resources and presumably where you do not own a primary home, rental property or timber acreage. Well done -- you make the case for public assistance far better than any politician could.

BTW, from the pictures, I'd say KBL got a bit more than just "wet".
madhatter
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Re: FEMA

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:I was unaware indeed you are the Killington region has experienced major flooding 5 times in the past 10 years. This comes as a real shock to me, since for the past 13 years this is the only time I can recall state highways washing out, government helicopters flying about and entire towns being cutoff from the outside world. Guess I haven't been paying very close attention. Could you please post the information you have on these recent past natural disasters?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are in favor of restoring services to the areas where you have a financial interest, but find it wasteful and too expensive to rebuild in neighborhoods where fewer people live or work or have less resources and presumably where you do not own a primary home, rental property or timber acreage. Well done -- you make the case for public assistance far better than any politician could.

BTW, from the pictures, I'd say KBL got a bit more than just "wet".

come back when you READ what was written or have some kind of clue. Lillie ville brook one area extensive flooding major damage in 2007 and again this year ( saw both of these IN PERSON
, stony brook rd 3 , 100 yr floods since 76, Helped bring supplies etc to them this week IN PERSON Davis hill , Fletcher brook ALL IN STOCKBRIDGE/Gaysville. Google spring 2011 vt floods. from the NYT article "In this hamlet, set in an Ulster County valley, two creeks swelled violently, their waters temporarily swallowing parts of town and turning Main Street into a rushing river. It was the third time since last October that flooding had inundated the hamlet." MORE The last three large flooding emergencies — in 1996 and 2005, and the disaster of recent days — were all considered 100-year floods, meaning that they had breached a level that had only a 1 percent chance of being exceeded in any given year. MORE In 1991, they bought a Cape Cod-style house from the 1920s on property at the confluence of the hamlet’s two streams. ...Floods have inundated their basement five times ...Each flood has cost them at least $50,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, they said. “Oh, the real estate lady said, ‘Only once every 100 years,’ ” Ms. Davies, a psychoanalyst and actress, recalled with a dark chuckle. I also CLEARLY said I DO NOT think others should foot the bill for a rd that reaches my property. MORE THAN ONCE in this and other irene related threads. Officials are out here begging us to file for any possible storm damage we can. see my post elsewhere on resurfacing my driveway on the gov dime. FYI I am a libertarian I fend for myself and and ask for nothing from the gov. In fact I worked w state police and forest service personnel all week as a volunteer, with my equipment to boot. READ ALL OF IT, comprehend it, then come back with your ideologically driven attack on right wingers for things they never said.
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Coydog
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Re: FEMA

Post by Coydog »

Sorry, but your Facebook link does not work - nothing to read there.

I was unaware Ulster County was within the Killington Region, I really need to recalibrate my GPS.

I don't think an isolated washout along a short backcountry road qualifies as major devastation, though no doubt the families affected have a very different perspective.

Hauling supplies to your neighbors up a remote road is certainly appreciated, commendable and probably satisfying, but don't forget, it is also your responsibility as a neighbor.

Oh, did you get a chance to mention to any of the families up there that should they accept public assistance, you believe they should abandon their homes and build elsewhere since it will be way too expensive to rebuild the roads for the benefit of so few and you sure as hell aren't gonna pay for it.
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Re: FEMA

Post by Geoff »

madhatter wrote:, stony brook rd 3 , 100 yr floods since 76, Helped bring supplies etc to them this week IN PERSON Davis hill , Fletcher brook ALL IN STOCKBRIDGE/Gaysville. Google spring 2011 vt floods.
Sounds to me like an example of a local problem where the town has under-engineered roads.
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Coydog
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Re: FEMA

Post by Coydog »

Geoff wrote:
madhatter wrote:, stony brook rd 3 , 100 yr floods since 76, Helped bring supplies etc to them this week IN PERSON Davis hill , Fletcher brook ALL IN STOCKBRIDGE/Gaysville. Google spring 2011 vt floods.
Sounds to me like an example of a local problem where the town has under-engineered roads.
Not anymore, those roads are essentially gone.
madhatter
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Re: FEMA

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:Sorry, but your Facebook link does not work - nothing to read there.

I was unaware Ulster County was within the Killington Region, I really need to recalibrate my GPS.

I don't think an isolated washout along a short backcountry road qualifies as major devastation, though no doubt the families affected have a very different perspective.

Hauling supplies to your neighbors up a remote road is certainly appreciated, commendable and probably satisfying, but don't forget, it is also your responsibility as a neighbor.

REALLY? I OWE THEM THAT?no one was here helping me maintain my extensive roadway and culverts here during the storm ( nor would I expect them to) IN fact while ma gov would likelypay to resurface my driveway and replace my culvert with a bigger one as I said before I get erosion in any heavy r*in, why should a guy in utah have to foot the bill? on top of that it nearlya mile of private ( shared) rd to get to my roadway. WE PAY FOR THAT because it is ours and our responsibility.

Oh, did you get a chance to mention to any of the families up there that should they accept public assistance, you believe they should abandon their homes and build elsewhere since it will be way too expensive to rebuild the roads for the benefit of so few and you sure as hell aren't gonna pay for it.
yes dumbass we hand out fliers and info, conduct daily briefings, supply individuals with food, transportation, information and any other type of assistance they may need. Ya really think no one thought of that? The reality is some section of this rd are on a TWO YEAR restoration plan. They will NOT be plowable this winter and residents have been notified and offered assistance while fed dollars are available to relocate them and make provisions for wintering livestock, horses etc.

again you fail to comprehend as you DO NOT LIVE HERE stony brook rd is over 6 miles long, lillieville ( lilibrook) over 5 miles google it. the house at the end of it belongs to a friend of mine. been flooded many times he doubts he will be allowed to rebuild. Both roads have many many bridges and culverts and few houses. They terminate as class 4 unmaintained rds. miles from the main rd/ There was SEVERE devastation there , homes were lost, bridges were destroyed etc. your argument about ulster not being in killington is equally stupid. grasping at straws when you have no clue. so building in one flood ravaged area is irrelevant to building in another? Sorry you can;t see the pictures nor read the comments from those who LIVE specifically on the affected rds. they also aren't my pics BTW try this for some insite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smwv-J7BJ3U&sns=fb

if the owner of the davis hill pics will make them public I will post them.
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madhatter
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Re: FEMA

Post by madhatter »

Geoff wrote:
madhatter wrote:, stony brook rd 3 , 100 yr floods since 76, Helped bring supplies etc to them this week IN PERSON Davis hill , Fletcher brook ALL IN STOCKBRIDGE/Gaysville. Google spring 2011 vt floods.
Sounds to me like an example of a local problem where the town has under-engineered roads.
or camps that became homes on dirt rds that are now riverbed. and yes they are essentially gone.
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madhatter
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Re: FEMA

Post by madhatter »

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 4657_n.jpg

try that and see if you can get to the album from there.
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Coydog
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Re: FEMA

Post by Coydog »

Coydog wrote: Hauling supplies to your neighbors up a remote road is certainly appreciated, commendable and probably satisfying, but don't forget, it is also your responsibility as a neighbor.
madhatter wrote: REALLY? I OWE THEM THAT?
Absolutely.
madhatter wrote: yes dumbass we hand out fliers and info, conduct daily briefings, supply individuals with food, transportation, information and any other type of assistance they may need. Ya really think no one thought of that? The reality is some section of this rd are on a TWO YEAR restoration plan. They will NOT be plowable this winter and residents have been notified and offered assistance while fed dollars are available to relocate them and make provisions for wintering livestock, horses etc.

again you fail to comprehend as you DO NOT LIVE HERE stony brook rd is over 6 miles long, lillieville ( lilibrook) over 5 miles google it. the house at the end of it belongs to a friend of mine. been flooded many times he doubts he will be allowed to rebuild. Both roads have many many bridges and culverts and few houses. They terminate as class 4 unmaintained rds. miles from the main rd/ There was SEVERE devastation there , homes were lost, bridges were destroyed etc. your argument about ulster not being in killington is equally stupid. grasping at straws when you have no clue. so building in one flood ravaged area is irrelevant to building in another?
You make a lot of assumptions but so far precious little sense to me. I don't think there is a living soul who has seen devastation on this scale in this region before. This is hardly a common event even if some sections of a 5 mile backcountry road have occasionally washed out in the past.

And helping a neighbor in need is indeed a responsibility, perhaps not a legal duty, but certainly a responsibility in any decent person's moral code. Based on your actions (and not your words) I do not believe you really disagree with this. But if you do, then we are truly worlds apart despite the fact that I too have walked those very same roads in recent days and also attend those regular meetings near the cemetery up on the common.
madhatter
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Re: FEMA

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:
Coydog wrote: Hauling supplies to your neighbors up a remote road is certainly appreciated, commendable and probably satisfying, but don't forget, it is also your responsibility as a neighbor.
madhatter wrote: REALLY? I OWE THEM THAT?
Absolutely.
madhatter wrote: yes dumbass we hand out fliers and info, conduct daily briefings, supply individuals with food, transportation, information and any other type of assistance they may need. Ya really think no one thought of that? The reality is some section of this rd are on a TWO YEAR restoration plan. They will NOT be plowable this winter and residents have been notified and offered assistance while fed dollars are available to relocate them and make provisions for wintering livestock, horses etc.

again you fail to comprehend as you DO NOT LIVE HERE stony brook rd is over 6 miles long, lillieville ( lilibrook) over 5 miles google it. the house at the end of it belongs to a friend of mine. been flooded many times he doubts he will be allowed to rebuild. Both roads have many many bridges and culverts and few houses. They terminate as class 4 unmaintained rds. miles from the main rd/ There was SEVERE devastation there , homes were lost, bridges were destroyed etc. your argument about ulster not being in killington is equally stupid. grasping at straws when you have no clue. so building in one flood ravaged area is irrelevant to building in another?
You make a lot of assumptions but so far precious little sense to me. I don't think there is a living soul who has seen devastation on this scale in this region before. This is hardly a common event even if some sections of a 5 mile backcountry road have occasionally washed out in the past.

And helping a neighbor in need is indeed a responsibility, perhaps not a legal duty, but certainly a responsibility in any decent person's moral code. Based on your actions (and not your words) I do not believe you really disagree with this. But if you do, then we are truly worlds apart despite the fact that I too have walked those very same roads in recent days and also attend those regular meetings near the cemetery up on the common.
if you live here you KNOW lilievile and you know how bad it was in 07. that the r*in that day was localized vs statewide does not diminish the fact that it was still a "100 yr event" it was not a backcountry rd that occasionally washes out. Ask Don. ( if you live here you know who he is too)

as far as responsibility I do disagree as far as what a decent person would do OK but I know a lot of decent people who did not volunteer. Its not for everyone. Some people simply do not have that character, skill, muscle, time or whatever else it takes.. otherwise I maintain my original point SOME places might be best off not rebuilt.
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madhatter
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Re: FEMA

Post by madhatter »

Shumlin said. “So for every investment that we make, for every decision that we make, I ask us to ask this question: how prudent is it if you've really been almost destroyed, to be back in the same location, or should (you) be on higher ground?”


http://www.vnews.com/09072011/8024041.htm
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icedtea
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Re: FEMA

Post by icedtea »

Geoff wrote:
millerm277 wrote:@madhatter, the other option is to tighten up the building standards in flood prone zones. It always seems to be the most middle of the road solution to me, but one that doesn't seem to get done that often.

If you're in a zone that floods a lot, you should be required to build it like a beach house. First floor is a garage and a staircase, and built pretty tough.

Do a few people need to be bought out? Absolutely. The guys who's homes literally wash away in storms (apologies to shortski), probably ought to be bought out. Otherwise, build them higher to keep them above the water.
The problem is that people built oceanfront McMansions on stilts. They still wash away in big hurricanes and put a huge drain on the flood insurance system. If you built in that style in Vermont, the wall of debris would merely take out the stilts. Back in the day, a beach house was a shack or a trailer. If it washed away, you just built another one or hauled in another trailer.

I don't think there should be federal-subsidized flood insurance for new construction since it mostly subsidizes rich people.
I believe the correct term is bungalow, all of which are being bought up, knocked down, and replaced with bigger, costlier homes on the NJ coast.
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madhatter
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Re: FEMA

Post by madhatter »

I was so mean to coydog back then, sorry dude...

earliest known picture of madhatter and coydog in the same location....


Image

Image


a lot's changed since the flood, was interesting to look back at this stuff 5 years later...

funny back then I only had crappy satellite internet but at the time it was a a great thing as once I popped on the juice from the generator I was online and pretty much the only source of contact w the outside world a lot of people had...if it happened today I'd be as isolated as everyone else...if I remember correctly cell service was spotty or non existent ( even more so than usual :D )
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'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
madhatter
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Re: FEMA

Post by madhatter »

I was so mean to coydog back then, sorry dude...

earliest known picture of madhatter and coydog in the same location....


Image

Image


a lot's changed since the flood, was interesting to look back at this stuff 5 years later...

funny back then I only had crappy satellite internet but at the time it was a a great thing as once I popped on the juice from the generator I was online and pretty much the only source of contact w the outside world a lot of people had...if it happened today I'd be as isolated as everyone else...if I remember correctly cell service was spotty or non existent ( even more so than usual :D )
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
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