Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by shortski »

madhatter wrote:SS what do you make of this guy's write up?

http://firespeedtactical.com/tech/223-5-56-nato/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"As a medium game cartridge, the .223 is under powered if fast killing is to be expected with ordinary chest shots. The one exception is when using tumbling FMJ ammunition which completely and utterly changes the performance of this cartridge on medium game.

The tumbling 55 grain bullet is truly violent and fast killing and is the most effective medium game hunting load for the .223. Exit wounds on medium game are often as wide as 3”. However, it must be stated that when full metal jacket ammunition tumbles, the bullet also very gradually falls to pieces due to the unsealed base of the bullet allowing jacket core separation. Because the process is gradual, wounding occurs through vitals and bone, rather than on impact resulting in adequate penetration for all but tail on shots on medium game."
I don't hunt so I've never looked into the ballistics of most popular hunting rounds.
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madhatter
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by madhatter »

shortski wrote:
madhatter wrote:SS what do you make of this guy's write up?

http://firespeedtactical.com/tech/223-5-56-nato/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"As a medium game cartridge, the .223 is under powered if fast killing is to be expected with ordinary chest shots. The one exception is when using tumbling FMJ ammunition which completely and utterly changes the performance of this cartridge on medium game.

The tumbling 55 grain bullet is truly violent and fast killing and is the most effective medium game hunting load for the .223. Exit wounds on medium game are often as wide as 3”. However, it must be stated that when full metal jacket ammunition tumbles, the bullet also very gradually falls to pieces due to the unsealed base of the bullet allowing jacket core separation. Because the process is gradual, wounding occurs through vitals and bone, rather than on impact resulting in adequate penetration for all but tail on shots on medium game."
I don't hunt so I've never looked into the ballistics of most popular hunting rounds.
"medium game" = smaller than a human. he also says the FMJ bullet is the one that tumbles and breaks apart.

my understanding is that high velocity rounds tend to penetrate vs expand at VERY close range and create a "through and through" wound vs a much larger exit wound when expansion occurs. ( again, from what I understand, this was a primary reason for moving from the 30-06 spfld to the 308/7.62 NATO, it has also been said that the move to the 223/5.56 NATO was to create a round that wounds often vs kills when well placed and that more shots from the lighter carry weight were more effective at doing so) Which is why I posted the "game hunting" comparisons. It would seem to me that at 0-2 ft range the .223 would create many clean entry/exit wounds, unless the ammo were specifically designed to be used at that close range, which would seem impractical from a mfg and marketing standpoint for a rifle who's intended purpose is to shoot accurately at longer ranges(up to 100+ yards) than a handgun ( 0-15 yards) There ARE .223 handguns but they are more akin to a pistol grip short barrel rifle than a true pistol.

When we target shoot at close range w 9mm handguns and 22LR handguns we often find hundreds of projectiles completely undamaged except for minor rifling marks when there is significant snow cover behind the target. ( we find these in the spring when the snow melts) They've hit nothing of significant "hardness" to cause them to fragment or expand, and just lose speed in the snow I assume.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

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The FMJ round is useless for hunting for food. You don't want to destroy the target by having a tumble bullet that breaks apart. I have seen pictures of what this round did in combat from Vietnam and the exit wounds are pretty bad, like a shoulder ripped off, back of the leg torn apart or the rear of a skull blown apart. Entry is tiny, exit is a mess.

.223 is good for range shooting at varmints a good distance away. With a proper weighted bullet it could take down some medium animals like coyotes, antilope or small deer. Same bullet from a .270 WIN or 30-30 or 30-06 Remington would be a better choice for full range game hunting.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

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Dr. NO wrote:The FMJ round is useless for hunting for food. You don't want to destroy the target by having a tumble bullet that breaks apart. I have seen pictures of what this round did in combat from Vietnam and the exit wounds are pretty bad, like a shoulder ripped off, back of the leg torn apart or the rear of a skull blown apart. Entry is tiny, exit is a mess.

.223 is good for range shooting at varmints a good distance away. With a proper weighted bullet it could take down some medium animals like coyotes, antilope or small deer. Same bullet from a .270 WIN or 30-30 or 30-06 Remington would be a better choice for full range game hunting.
I don't own an AR or a .223, the 30-06 is my deer gun of choice followed by a 12 ga w slug for close in or brush hunting situation. The 06 however is useless as a home defense weapon ( unless it was a doomsday scenario and you needed to secure a perimeter from a sniping position) and the 12 ga is quite effective. I was asking about how the above information on hunting ( and the info you just supplied) applies to/contradicts/supports etc the forensic claims stated earlier about close range massive damage supposedly inflicted by lanza's bushmaster.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

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madhatter wrote:
Dr. NO wrote:The FMJ round is useless for hunting for food. You don't want to destroy the target by having a tumble bullet that breaks apart. I have seen pictures of what this round did in combat from Vietnam and the exit wounds are pretty bad, like a shoulder ripped off, back of the leg torn apart or the rear of a skull blown apart. Entry is tiny, exit is a mess.

.223 is good for range shooting at varmints a good distance away. With a proper weighted bullet it could take down some medium animals like coyotes, antilope or small deer. Same bullet from a .270 WIN or 30-30 or 30-06 Remington would be a better choice for full range game hunting.
I don't own an AR or a .223, the 30-06 is my deer gun of choice followed by a 12 ga w slug for close in or brush hunting situation. The 06 however is useless as a home defense weapon ( unless it was a doomsday scenario and you needed to secure a perimeter from a sniping position) and the 12 ga is quite effective. I was asking about how the above information on hunting ( and the info you just supplied) applies to/contradicts/supports etc the forensic claims stated earlier about close range massive damage supposedly inflicted by lanza's bushmaster.
gruesome images no matter what round is used at close range. Mostly hitting soft tissue the .223 would pass through, small entry / exit wound. If bone matter hit, the .223 will do what your 06 does, open up destroying tissue, maybe no exit. The military FMJ once it hits something tends to shred everything.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by madhatter »

Dr. NO wrote:
madhatter wrote:
Dr. NO wrote:The FMJ round is useless for hunting for food. You don't want to destroy the target by having a tumble bullet that breaks apart. I have seen pictures of what this round did in combat from Vietnam and the exit wounds are pretty bad, like a shoulder ripped off, back of the leg torn apart or the rear of a skull blown apart. Entry is tiny, exit is a mess.

.223 is good for range shooting at varmints a good distance away. With a proper weighted bullet it could take down some medium animals like coyotes, antilope or small deer. Same bullet from a .270 WIN or 30-30 or 30-06 Remington would be a better choice for full range game hunting.
I don't own an AR or a .223, the 30-06 is my deer gun of choice followed by a 12 ga w slug for close in or brush hunting situation. The 06 however is useless as a home defense weapon ( unless it was a doomsday scenario and you needed to secure a perimeter from a sniping position) and the 12 ga is quite effective. I was asking about how the above information on hunting ( and the info you just supplied) applies to/contradicts/supports etc the forensic claims stated earlier about close range massive damage supposedly inflicted by lanza's bushmaster.
gruesome images no matter what round is used at close range. Mostly hitting soft tissue the .223 would pass through, small entry / exit wound. If bone matter hit, the .223 will do what your 06 does, open up destroying tissue, maybe no exit. The military FMJ once it hits something tends to shred everything.
when I bought that gun ( a savage bolt action at service merchandise) it came a box of 180gr softnose bullets so I sighted in and used them, the next day I shot a deer right in the forehead, ripped the top of it's head clean off about 2/1/2 inches wide by 4-6 long, dropped it right there on the spot, ( turns out the receiver came loose from the stock and cause the entire action to jump when fired. a little loctite fixed that up and it's been fine ever since) After that I switched to the 150gr korelokt and while those still expand the carnage is far less while still performing the intended action.


as it applies to the topic this is what the forensics guy said:

"The bullets are designed in such a fashion the energy is deposited in the tissue so the bullet stays in," Carver said. He described the wounds as a "very devastating set of injuries."

he doesn't say head shots or bone or TBI or any of that, he says tissue.

.223 EXIT wound

Image

http://roestalker.co.uk/tag/bullet/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

while that is certainly nothing to shrug off, as evidenced by the freezer prep, it most certainly wasn't done at 0-2ft either, I just question why the forensics guy said:"He said the bullets were uniquely damaging and that Lanza's victims died almost immediately." from what you have posted he should have said " consistent w injuries sustained from that type of weapon/ammo" though I still question the entry/exit damage of high velocity rounds at 0-2ft ( I also agree that close range was not specifically designated as any specific distance as it pertains to the article) I also understand that a clean entry/exit can still equal dead. and dead is certainly devastating.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

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madhatter wrote: I was asking about how the above information on hunting ( and the info you just supplied) applies to/contradicts/supports etc the forensic claims stated earlier about close range massive damage supposedly inflicted by lanza's bushmaster.
It doesn't. Unless he was using jacketed hollow points, Hydroshock or frangible rounds. If he was using jacketed ammunition it would still be devastating but the rounds would be through and through unless they hit bone. Not to be crude but the bones of a six year old don't have the density to cause a jacketed bullet to fragment very much. On the other hand low velocity jacketed 9mm or 9mm JHP would cause the damage described. I see a fire in the misinformation being reported so I'm going for the can of gasoline.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by madhatter »

shortski wrote:
madhatter wrote: I was asking about how the above information on hunting ( and the info you just supplied) applies to/contradicts/supports etc the forensic claims stated earlier about close range massive damage supposedly inflicted by lanza's bushmaster.
It doesn't. Unless he was using jacketed hollow points, Hydroshock or frangible rounds. If he was using jacketed ammunition it would still be devastating but the rounds would be through and through unless they hit bone. Not to be crude but the bones of a six year old don't have the density to cause a jacketed bullet to fragment very much. On the other hand low velocity jacketed 9mm or 9mm JHP would cause the damage described. I see a fire in the misinformation being reported so I'm going for the can of gasoline.
exactly what I was saying here:
madhatter wrote:
the point I was trying to make was that the 223 round would be less likely to tumble and more likely to penetrate cleanly at very close range. I fully understand that the bullet doesn't come "tumbling" out of the rifled barrel, ( so I guess I worded that incorrectly) but at point blank to a foot or two, that round would likely penetrate cleanly thru soft tissue. As you said a jacketed hollow point, blacktalon or similar type ammo at the same range would be more likely to expand on impact, even more likely so with a lower velocity rnd like the 9mm.

and here:
madhatter wrote:
even this is inconsistent, the .223 is a high velocity rifle cartridge known for it's "tumbling, ripping effect" however at very close range this bullet would not yet have begun its "tumble" and thus would be highly likely to penetrate through the victims body cleanly unless it were to strike solid mass ( bone, not tissue as described above). part of the reason the 30-06 springfield round was replaced by the .308/7.62 NATO rnd


Seeing as we don't know exactly what "close range" here means and we don't know what the exact make up of the ammo is or where the victims were struck, it's impossible to say definitively, but in an execution style killing at point blank range the 9mm handgun would be both easier and more effective to use than the .223 rifle.

so why does the forensics guy use the specific terminology he does? shouldn't he be an EXPERT on this? In both the CO and Newtown shootings there are so many discrepancies from supposed experts and officials, combined with bizarre circumstances and improbable scenarios, that it only raises more questions and more doubt at the credibility of anyone.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by shortski »

madhatter wrote:
so why does the forensics guy use the specific terminology he does? shouldn't he be an EXPERT on this? In both the CO and Newtown shootings there are so many discrepancies from supposed experts and officials, combined with bizarre circumstances and improbable scenarios, that it only raises more questions and more doubt at the credibility of anyone.
The more people who question the governments information the quicker the press (maybe not the now mainstream press) will start to do their job. Everyone should be grabbing gas cans.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

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Why are you questioning the .223 in the Newtown case? The official report has stated the culprit used 4 semi-auto pistols. He had a M-15 in the car with several 30 round magazines but they were not used. Kind of makes the questions / observations on the .223 moot points.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

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Dr. NO wrote:Why are you questioning the .223 in the Newtown case? The official report has stated the culprit used 4 semi-auto pistols.because of the posts below He had a M-15 in the car with several 30 round magazines but they were not used. Kind of makes the questions / observations on the .223 moot points.
Coydog wrote:UPDATE: State Police Confirm Weapons Used in Newtown Shootings

The Connecticut State Police released a statement on January 18th attempting to clarify the confusion generated by the inconsistent and irresponsible media reporting following the Sandy Hook elementary shooting in Newtown on December 14th.

The released list of weapons sets the record straight on an issue that has driven the blogosphere to increasingly speculative lengths: exactly which weapons were used in the shooting?

The weapons seized from the attacker Adam Lanza are as follows, according to the State Police:

#1. Bushmaster .223 caliber– model XM15-E2S rifle with high capacity 30 round clips

#2. Glock 10 mm handgun

#3. Sig-Sauer P226 9mm handgun

Seized from suspect’s car in parking lot:

#4. Izhmash Canta-12 12 gauge Shotgun (seized from car in parking lot)

The Bushmaster .223 (not .233) can be assumed to be a semi-automatic rifle, although variants in fully automatic have been made for military and police purchasers. It is a “lightweight, small-caliber semi-automatic rifle, with a light recoil and a variety of optional barrel lengths and targeting/aiming devices.”

The Bushmaster .223 would fall under the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban legislation [Section 2(B)], since it has a detachable magazine (in this case, a 30-round magazine). The term “assault weapons” should be noted, since it appears to be politicized term used customarily to suit the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban legislation. The term is a redundancy, because there is no such thing as a “non-assault weapon.”
...
Coydog wrote:These are not "offical" reports, but they are consistent even though they originate from widely varying sources.

Newtown shooter's guns: What we know

The primary weapon used in the attack was a "Bushmaster AR-15 assault-type weapon," said Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance. The rifle is a Bushmaster version of a widely made AR-15, the civilian version of the M-16 rifle used by the U.S. military. The original M-16 patent ran out years ago, and now the AR-15 is manufactured by several gunmakers. Unlike the military version, the AR-15 is a semiautomatic, firing one bullet per squeeze of the trigger. But like the M-16, ammunition is loaded through a magazine. In the school shooting, police say Lanza's rifle used numerous 30-round magazines.
...

Adam Lanza Shot Victims with Semi-Automatic Rifle

Adam Lanza used a Bushmaster .223 semi-automatic rifle at close range to kill children and adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut on Friday.

"I believe everybody was hit more than once," said Dr. H. Wayne Carver, the state of Connecticut's Chief Medical Examiner.

He said the bullets were uniquely damaging and that Lanza's victims died almost immediately.

"The bullets are designed in such a fashion the energy is deposited in the tissue so the bullet stays in," Carver said. He described the wounds as a "very devastating set of injuries."

Two handguns were also found at the scene, but Carver described the Bushmaster as the killer's primary weapon. A fourth weapon was found nearby. The weapons discovered at the school apparently belonged to a family member, possibly his mother, according to authorities.

Lanza, 20, forced his way into Sandy Hook on Friday morning and killed 20 children and six adults before committing suicide. He drove to the school after shooting his mother in the face at their home.

The weapons that police recovered from the scene included a Glock 9-mm handgun, a Sig Sauer 9-mm handgun and a Bushmaster rifle. Police also found .223 shell casings. Lanza was wearing a bullet-proof vest.


Connecticut State Police Clarify Sandy Hook Weapons Questions

The debate over gun control in our country has spawned many rumors in relation to the weapons used at Sandy Hook Elementary. Many blogs and other forums are reporting that the weapon removed from the shooter's vehicle was the AR-15 and this was not used in the shooting. On Friday, January 18th, the Connecticut State Police issued a press release (see text below) about this issue and confirmed the Bushmaster was found inside the school.

I contacted the CT State Police for further clarification. Lt. Paul Vance told me the Bushmaster was, in fact, fired inside the school and used to kill all 26 people who died that day.

I asked Vance about the magazine capacity of the handguns that were found inside the school. He said he did not have that information, but confirmed that the shooter had numerous magazines with him inside the school.

It was very clear in speaking with him that they are frustrated with the rumors about this case and the manipulation of the tragedy for political purposes by both sides of the gun control debate. There was obvious pain in his voice reflecting of the exposure to the carnage of the crime scene experienced by all who responded to the scene of this crime and those who continue to investigate the details.
...
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shortski
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by shortski »

So much information and dis-information will be moot...when the facts are revealed. The facts are in the control of the?????? but as long as the information remains intact...and not substituted (who would that benefit) every thing is fine.

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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

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shortski wrote:So much information and dis-information will be moot...when the facts are revealed. The facts are in the control of the?????? but as long as the information remains intact...and not substituted (who would that benefit) every thing is fine.

Image out.
I remember years ago voicing my opinion of possible alternate theories as to why we went into Iraq and getting attacked by you. Things along the lines of not being patriotic and not towing the national line. Got creamed for asking questions about why certain things about 9/11 weren't investigated more. But here you are questioning the deaths of 20 school children. Making it out to be some kind of conspiracy. Well, maybe you should come down and live in ct and have relatives that have children that attend the school. Get some facts that maybe aren't in the media simply because nobody needs to know the intimate details of why their children died at school. Go ahead and push your agenda and your sick theories but know how much these types of rants and posts hurt those who really deal with this every day. I don't, but i have a family member who lives this every day.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

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And now, the politics of the issue starts to hit...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/us/po ... 30124&_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by 2knees »

Things like that are to be expected because the gun owning populous has a point. Banning the guns will not solve the problem. It's an issue beyond anything we can fix through legislation. Even if we banned all gun sales of any kind today what would that really accomplish? Everyone who wants one already has two.

Saying the government went in and killed 20 kids is another story however. One you should ask your close friends about. If you truly are as level headed as you like to portray yourself as being.
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