Vermont Health Exchange

Anything and Everything political, express your view, but play nice
Post Reply
Bubba
Site Admin
Posts: 26274
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 08:42
Location: Where the climate suits my clothes

Vermont Health Exchange

Post by Bubba »

I decided to check out the new Vermont Health Exchange today to see how it worked, what the prices are, and whether any of the plans offered are actually affordable without government subsidy. The first thing I did was to enter a fictitious monthly earning rate of $4,000 per month to see if that would qualify for any subsidy. The answer from the site was "it doesn't appear as if you qualify" for help or some such words like that. Then I checked out the various offerings. For a couple - just the two of us, no kids - the lowest monthly rate is about $850 for a "silver" plan. I didn't go any further because the site was so slow and I got fed up with waiting. So there you have it - unaffordable care under the Affordable Care Act. The good part is that at least insurance is available (it was before, though, wasn't it?) and you can easily compare costs. Unfortunately, were I part of a couple making $4,000 per month, I still couldn't afford it. I have no idea what the penalty will be for not being insured, but I guarantee it's nowhere near $850 or more per month. So, after all the haggling, all the fighting, one-sided passage of the ACA...what was the point?

There are a couple of good points to the bill, I will agree with that:

1. No rejection for pre-existing conditions.
2. Removal of a lifetime cap on coverage.
3. Allowing "kids" up to 26 to remain covered under a parent's policy. (Is this for everyone or just those "kids" still in school? If it's for everyone, I'd debate whether this is good policy.)
4. On-line exchanges making it easy to find, compare, and enroll for coverage.

Unfortunately, I think the bad parts of the bill still outweigh the benefits so I'm still opposed to the law in its current form. If anything, once we find out that younger people and others would rather pay the penalties instead of enrolling, insurance costs will rise rather than fall due to the higher expenses for insurance companies resulting from at least 1 & 2 above. Perverse incentives and unintended consequences do not a good bill make.
"Abandon hope all ye who enter here"

Killington Zone
You can checkout any time you like,
but you can never leave

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function" =
F. Scott Fitzgerald

"There's nothing more frightening than ignorance in action" - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
madhatter
Signature Poster
Posts: 18340
Joined: Apr 2nd, '08, 17:26

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by madhatter »

indeed, wait until the Free $hit Army finds out the $hit ain't free... gonna be funny watching idiots who think that insurance already was too expensive finding out its even more expensive when you pay for yours and part of someone else's too...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
wanderer7453
Bumper
Posts: 778
Joined: Nov 11th, '04, 05:47
Location: Marlton, NJ

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by wanderer7453 »

well said MH
rogman
Postinator
Posts: 7010
Joined: Mar 27th, '06, 13:33
Location: In a maze of twisty little passages, all alike

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by rogman »

Health care is expensive. What's your point? I pay more than that now. At least people can now GET healthcare. You want free healthcare, there are plenty of foreign countries that provide it.
Image
Bubba
Site Admin
Posts: 26274
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 08:42
Location: Where the climate suits my clothes

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by Bubba »

rogman wrote:Health care is expensive. What's your point? I pay more than that now. At least people can now GET healthcare. You want free healthcare, there are plenty of foreign countries that provide it.
You pay more than $850 per month for you and Doria? Doesn't your employer pay the majority of the cost?

Yes, health insurance (and healthcare) is expensive. But what does the ACA do to lower or limit the growth of either of those costs? It certainly doesn't force people to purchase unaffordable insurance through the penalty provisions. It doesn't force companies to provide insurance through penalty provisions. In fact, it incentivizes companies to reduce the hours of their workforce to below 30 hours per week to avoid having to provide insurance. It guarantees that insurance companies' costs will go up, not down. What does the ACA do beyond setting up health insurance exchanges and make competitor rates more visible?
"Abandon hope all ye who enter here"

Killington Zone
You can checkout any time you like,
but you can never leave

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function" =
F. Scott Fitzgerald

"There's nothing more frightening than ignorance in action" - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
madhatter
Signature Poster
Posts: 18340
Joined: Apr 2nd, '08, 17:26

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by madhatter »

Bubba wrote:
rogman wrote:Health care is expensive. What's your point? I pay more than that now. At least people can now GET healthcare. You want free healthcare, there are plenty of foreign countries that provide it.
You pay more than $850 per month for you and Doria? Doesn't your employer pay the majority of the cost?

Yes, health insurance (and healthcare) is expensive. But what does the ACA do to lower or limit the growth of either of those costs? It certainly doesn't force people to purchase unaffordable insurance through the penalty provisions. It doesn't force companies to provide insurance through penalty provisions. In fact, it incentivizes companies to reduce the hours of their workforce to below 30 hours per week to avoid having to provide insurance. It guarantees that insurance companies' costs will go up, not down. What does the ACA do beyond setting up health insurance exchanges and make competitor rates more visible?
you could always GET any kind of insurance on anything you wanted, but the premium might be cost prohibitive, what's changed? oh yeah you will be fined if you find the cost prohibitive now...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
Bubba
Site Admin
Posts: 26274
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 08:42
Location: Where the climate suits my clothes

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by Bubba »

Our governor has such a way with words. :roll:

http://vermontbiz.com/news/october/heal ... -286323177" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Abandon hope all ye who enter here"

Killington Zone
You can checkout any time you like,
but you can never leave

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function" =
F. Scott Fitzgerald

"There's nothing more frightening than ignorance in action" - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
XtremeJibber2001
Signature Poster
Posts: 19560
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 09:35
Location: New York

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

Those who are successful and paid well are to support those who are not. That's all it is.
Bubba
Site Admin
Posts: 26274
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 08:42
Location: Where the climate suits my clothes

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by Bubba »

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:Those who are successful and paid well are to support those who are not. That's all it is.

I have no problem paying to help those who "can't". I fail to see why I should pay anything to help those who "won't".
"Abandon hope all ye who enter here"

Killington Zone
You can checkout any time you like,
but you can never leave

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function" =
F. Scott Fitzgerald

"There's nothing more frightening than ignorance in action" - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
deadheadskier
Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome
Posts: 3913
Joined: Apr 25th, '10, 17:03

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by deadheadskier »

Bubba wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:Those who are successful and paid well are to support those who are not. That's all it is.

I have no problem paying to help those who "can't". I fail to see why I should pay anything to help those who "won't".
I agree, but I don't see many eligible tax payers saying "I won't" when the reality is the plans are very fair.

Your little experiment here fails on 1 major thing. The Affordable Care Act only benefits those who make between 400% of the poverty level and less and operates on a sliding scale. That top 400% level is defined as $45,690 per year, so $3807 per month. The very TOP level falls below your arbitrary $4K per month test. Those who make that will pay at maximum, 9.5% of their income into the plan. That equals about $360 a month. $90 per week for health insurance for an individual making $45K a year ain't so bad. It's pretty darn affordable actually.

I'm actually a bit surprised Bubba that you threw in a number that doesn't work, because you are usually one of the best posters on Kzone in researching accuracy and the information is pretty readily available. The subsidy schedule based upon income vs the federal poverty level is outlined here:

http://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wor ... 962-02.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That $45K figure is for adjusted income too. So, in real income, someone could earn in the low 50s and qualify if they contribute the maximum towards their retirement; and that doesn't factor in other deductions.

That's big income in Vermont. The median income for VT workers is $27K per year. That's prior to any deductions and let's assume that people making that amount of money in VT aren't putting much if anything towards retirement.

http://www.usa.com/vermont-state-income-and-careers.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So HALF the income earners in the state, fall below 250% of the federal poverty level and at maximum would pay 8.05% of their income towards health insurance. At the top of that scale, that means the health insurance cost would be $191 a month. Under $50 a week. And it only gets more reasonable from there as income drops.

Will there be losers who say eff it and take the tax penalty fine? Sure, the amounts are small for the first couple of years of the Bill, but eventually it evens out where there's very little savings in going uninsured. I know this a point of philosophical/political contention about fining for no insurance, but throw that aside and just look at the numbers.

The reality is that the AFA regardless of it's flaws helps a massive percentage of workers whom we support while recreating at Killington. Virtually every worker in Killington who we do business with benefits huge with this plan over any private insurance on the market today. From the fine people who pour our coffee and cook our eggs in the morning, to the lifty that bumps our chairs, to the instructors that teach our kids how to ski to the bartenders who provide us a great Apres Time, to the guy who plows our driveway so we can easily park our posh SUVs in our driveways without worry when we arrive on Friday Night; AFA is a great deal for all of them; the working class. The vast majority of these people have never had insurance. Their employer hasn't provided it, the private purchase options are outrageous. Now they get something reasonable. There will be abuses of the system, but at least they now have options.

but by all means folks. travel to K next winter, tip your bartenders well, but let them know you don't give a f*** that for decades health insurance has been a pipe dream. If something happens to them, you'll feel bad, but there will always be somebody new waiting in the wings willing to pour yuor drinks with no insurance.
madhatter
Signature Poster
Posts: 18340
Joined: Apr 2nd, '08, 17:26

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by madhatter »

deadheadskier wrote:
Bubba wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:Those who are successful and paid well are to support those who are not. That's all it is.

I have no problem paying to help those who "can't". I fail to see why I should pay anything to help those who "won't".
I agree, but I don't see many eligible tax payers saying "I won't" when the reality is the plans are very fair.

Your little experiment here fails on 1 major thing. The Affordable Care Act only benefits those who make between 400% of the poverty level and less and operates on a sliding scale. That top 400% level is defined as $45,690 per year, so $3807 per month. The very TOP level falls below your arbitrary $4K per month test. Those who make that will pay at maximum, 9.5% of their income into the plan. That equals about $360 a month. $90 per week for health insurance for an individual making $45K a year ain't so bad. It's pretty darn affordable actually.

I'm actually a bit surprised Bubba that you threw in a number that doesn't work, because you are usually one of the best posters on Kzone in researching accuracy and the information is pretty readily available. The subsidy schedule based upon income vs the federal poverty level is outlined here:

http://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wor ... 962-02.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That $45K figure is for adjusted income too. So, in real income, someone could earn in the low 50s and qualify if they contribute the maximum towards their retirement; and that doesn't factor in other deductions.

That's big income in Vermont. The median income for VT workers is $27K per year. That's prior to any deductions and let's assume that people making that amount of money in VT aren't putting much if anything towards retirement.

http://www.usa.com/vermont-state-income-and-careers.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So HALF the income earners in the state, fall below 250% of the federal poverty level and at maximum would pay 8.05% of their income towards health insurance. At the top of that scale, that means the health insurance cost would be $191 a month. Under $50 a week. And it only gets more reasonable from there as income drops.

Will there be losers who say eff it and take the tax penalty fine? Sure, the amounts are small for the first couple of years of the Bill, but eventually it evens out where there's very little savings in going uninsured. I know this a point of philosophical/political contention about fining for no insurance, but throw that aside and just look at the numbers.

The reality is that the AFA regardless of it's flaws helps a massive percentage of workers whom we support while recreating at Killington. Virtually every worker in Killington who we do business with benefits huge with this plan over any private insurance on the market today. From the fine people who pour our coffee and cook our eggs in the morning, to the lifty that bumps our chairs, to the instructors that teach our kids how to ski to the bartenders who provide us a great Apres Time, to the guy who plows our driveway so we can easily park our posh SUVs in our driveways without worry when we arrive on Friday Night; AFA is a great deal for all of them; the working class. The vast majority of these people have never had insurance. Their employer hasn't provided it, the private purchase options are outrageous. Now they get something reasonable. There will be abuses of the system, but at least they now have options.

but by all means folks. travel to K next winter, tip your bartenders well, but let them know you don't give a f*** that for decades health insurance has been a pipe dream. If something happens to them, you'll feel bad, but there will always be somebody new waiting in the wings willing to pour yuor drinks with no insurance.
you really have no clue do you? from your own example on the kaiser page Pat makes 28,735 @ 250% of the poverty level. 8.05% of income is what he is required to pay @2,313 out of pocket BUT his actual premium is 5733, he will get a tax credit of 3420. First Pat won;t have 2313 dollars to spend on anything, let alone insurance premiums, and certainly won;t have 5733 to spend regardless of whether he would eventually get some of it back. I see they are saying it is advanceable but how does that work when we dont even have a way of verifying income in place yet? Yeah this albatross will fly...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
shortski
Site Admin
Posts: 8067
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 07:28
Location: Between the Dark and the Daylight
Contact:

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by shortski »

At this point I say let's just let it fly. When people realize that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act doesn't protect anyone and will cost far above what people can afford the American people will demand it's repeal.

I don't have a dog in this fight but everyone that I have spoken with that took the time to see what their costs would be are shocked at the expense and how little they get for their premiums.

Everyone needs to investigate exactly what their insurance cost will be. Use on line estimators but I wouldn't recommend going to the government site. Once you fill out the application to see what it will cost you just put yourself in the governments data base. Even if you don't "buy" a policy you will get a notice of how much you will owe wether you get insurance or not.
madhatter
Signature Poster
Posts: 18340
Joined: Apr 2nd, '08, 17:26

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by madhatter »

https://www.facebook.com/Healthcare.gov" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

seems like everyone loves it, NOT...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
Dr. NO
Signature Poster
Posts: 21422
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 05:52
Location: In the Baah!

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by Dr. NO »

21 Of the Best Comments Posted By Frustrated Americans on the Official Obamacare Facebook Page

Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/10/21-be ... dJCy72b.99" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yep, you gotta pass the bill before you can read the bill. Most of these are people that could not get onto the system, but some give you an idea of the so called "Affordable Care Act" which seems to be anything but affordable. Minimum wage employee working part time can't afford the premium let alone some ridiculous deductible.
MUST STOP POSTING ! MUST STOP POSTING !

Shut up and Ski!

Why's Everybody Always Pickin on Me?
User avatar
Mister Moose
Level 10K poster
Posts: 11595
Joined: Jan 4th, '05, 18:23
Location: Waiting for the next one

Re: Vermont Health Exchange

Post by Mister Moose »

deadheadskier wrote:

So HALF the income earners in the state, fall below 250% of the federal poverty level and at maximum would pay 8.05% of their income towards health insurance. At the top of that scale, that means the health insurance cost would be $191 a month. Under $50 a week. And it only gets more reasonable from there as income drops.
...
The reality is that the AFA regardless of it's flaws helps a massive percentage of workers whom we support while recreating at Killington. Virtually every worker in Killington who we do business with benefits huge with this plan over any private insurance on the market today. From the fine people who pour our coffee and cook our eggs in the morning, to the lifty that bumps our chairs, to the instructors that teach our kids how to ski to the bartenders who provide us a great Apres Time, to the guy who plows our driveway so we can easily park our posh SUVs in our driveways without worry when we arrive on Friday Night; AFA is a great deal for all of them; the working class. The vast majority of these people have never had insurance. Their employer hasn't provided it, the private purchase options are outrageous. Now they get something reasonable. There will be abuses of the system, but at least they now have options.

I'm thinking you're leaving out a huge segment of the population that is single or coupled with no kids between 18 and 50. These folks are mostly healthy and don't need or want to spend 8% of their income on health insurance. To make this program work and to keep it affordable, young healthy people need to pay in to help support the aging population. Just like social security. I don't think that part of the program was in the sales pitch, and those folks aren't going to be happy about it.
Image
Post Reply