Obama's world

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madhatter
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Re: Obama's world

Post by madhatter »

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:I expect some defenders of the Constitution to spout off over here very soon about the vast overreach of the obama administration in the use of FISA and other surveillance to illegally spy on US citizens.. I'm sure you're all furious over that violation of constitutional rights...:roll: yeah right like that'll ever happen....let's hear the hypocritical and "hillaryous" excuses for why it wasn't "really" spying but simply "keeping tabs on the opposition party via use of govt apparatus" which of course is still spying and illegal...
I expect you to put Trump on blast when he permanently reauthorizes the FISA Amendments Act, introduced by Republican Senator Cotton, which was the act used to spy on Trump, Flynn, and other Americans.
why? the act itself is just fine it's the blatant abuse of it by the corrupt obama administration that is the problem...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
XtremeJibber2001
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Re: Obama's world

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:I expect some defenders of the Constitution to spout off over here very soon about the vast overreach of the obama administration in the use of FISA and other surveillance to illegally spy on US citizens.. I'm sure you're all furious over that violation of constitutional rights...:roll: yeah right like that'll ever happen....let's hear the hypocritical and "hillaryous" excuses for why it wasn't "really" spying but simply "keeping tabs on the opposition party via use of govt apparatus" which of course is still spying and illegal...
I expect you to put Trump on blast when he permanently reauthorizes the FISA Amendments Act, introduced by Republican Senator Cotton, which was the act used to spy on Trump, Flynn, and other Americans.
why? the act itself is just fine it's the blatant abuse of it by the corrupt obama administration that is the problem...
Then I'd expect Trump to veto the bill unless there are stricter controls placed on FISA.
madhatter
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Re: Obama's world

Post by madhatter »

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:I expect some defenders of the Constitution to spout off over here very soon about the vast overreach of the obama administration in the use of FISA and other surveillance to illegally spy on US citizens.. I'm sure you're all furious over that violation of constitutional rights...:roll: yeah right like that'll ever happen....let's hear the hypocritical and "hillaryous" excuses for why it wasn't "really" spying but simply "keeping tabs on the opposition party via use of govt apparatus" which of course is still spying and illegal...
I expect you to put Trump on blast when he permanently reauthorizes the FISA Amendments Act, introduced by Republican Senator Cotton, which was the act used to spy on Trump, Flynn, and other Americans.
why? the act itself is just fine it's the blatant abuse of it by the corrupt obama administration that is the problem...
Then I'd expect Trump to veto the bill unless there are stricter controls placed on FISA.
the controls are in place you just can;t have a corrupt potus willing to look the other way while underlings exploit the law for political gain...

IRS, FISA, NSA etc obama admin has a well documented history of using the govt apparatus for political gain...

simple rule would be nice...govt officials may not plead the fifth when questioned about matters pertaining to the govt position they hold....you sign a waiver essentially stating that pleading the 5th is considered defacto mea culpa...kinda like refusing a breathalyzer...

maximum sentences for a couple of the "leakers" ought to slow down that spigot as well...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
XtremeJibber2001
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Re: Obama's world

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:I expect some defenders of the Constitution to spout off over here very soon about the vast overreach of the obama administration in the use of FISA and other surveillance to illegally spy on US citizens.. I'm sure you're all furious over that violation of constitutional rights...:roll: yeah right like that'll ever happen....let's hear the hypocritical and "hillaryous" excuses for why it wasn't "really" spying but simply "keeping tabs on the opposition party via use of govt apparatus" which of course is still spying and illegal...
I expect you to put Trump on blast when he permanently reauthorizes the FISA Amendments Act, introduced by Republican Senator Cotton, which was the act used to spy on Trump, Flynn, and other Americans.
why? the act itself is just fine it's the blatant abuse of it by the corrupt obama administration that is the problem...
Then I'd expect Trump to veto the bill unless there are stricter controls placed on FISA.
the controls are in place you just can;t have a corrupt potus willing to look the other way while underlings exploit the law for political gain...

IRS, FISA, NSA etc obama admin has a well documented history of using the govt apparatus for political gain...

simple rule would be nice...govt officials may not plead the fifth when questioned about matters pertaining to the govt position they hold....you sign a waiver essentially stating that pleading the 5th is considered defacto mea culpa...kinda like refusing a breathalyzer...

maximum sentences for a couple of the "leakers" ought to slow down that spigot as well...
To date, there are no criminal charges around the FISA act so if we suspect laws were broken, I'd expect Trump to push for an independent commission on abuse of FISA prior to re-enacting it the act. This would provide him assurance the establish controls were either (1) properly designed but abused through collusion (or other means) or (2) operating effectively and no need to enhance there design (e.g., there was no wrongdoing requiring any enhancement to the established controls).

I don't expect congress to amend the constitutions to get rid of the 5th Amendment.
madhatter
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Re: Obama's world

Post by madhatter »

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
To date, there are no criminal charges around the FISA act so if we suspect laws were broken, I'd expect Trump to push for an independent commission on abuse of FISA prior to re-enacting it the act. are you paying attn at all? that is EXACTLY what yesterday's SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE FISA hearing was about...that investigation is likely to continue and probably escalate when the new FBI chief is sworn in... This would provide him assurance the establish controls were either (1) properly designed but abused through collusion (or other means) or (2) operating effectively and no need to enhance there design (e.g., there was no wrongdoing requiring any enhancement to the established controls).

I don't expect congress to amend the constitutions to get rid of the 5th Amendment.
the fifth amendment already doesn't apply to corporations and it only applies to criminal cases...surely the precedent can be set that in order to hold public office you are legally bound to testify or otherwise in form the public of any and all actions taken as a public servant...basically you want the job you waive certain rights just like in the military...you are no longer a civilian, but US govt property...

I can see why congress would drag their feet or balk but I can;t see why any private citizens wouldn't be on board...

if you guys would stop coming to a conclusion and then searching exclusively for evidence to support it you'd have a much clearer understanding of reality...

try taking the other side for a minute w the same zeal you have for your current convictions, then weigh the evidence...that's what a court/judge/jury would do...


FYI the only reason FISA charges have not been filed is because the "leaker" hasn't been identified...we know there was a crime, we just don't know who committed it...that also is under investigation...leaking flynn's name was a felony...those leaking flynns name did so in order to illegally publicly discredit the sitting president... these are very serious crimes...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/us/p ... lurry.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So far, the White House has had little success in trying to shift the narrative from the Russian contacts to accusations about the leaking of sensitive information by the intelligence agencies, as well as by the F.B.I.
yep cuz the media is absolutely uninterested in that....

in fact this article relays the serious nature of the offenses then gives excuses for breaking the law calling it "wholly justified"...


https://theintercept.com/2017/02/14/the ... -felonies/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the spectrum of crimes involving the leaking of classified information, publicly revealing the contents of SIGINT — signals intelligence — is one of the most serious felonies. Journalists (and all other nongovernmental citizens) can be prosecuted under federal law for disclosing classified information only under the narrowest circumstances; reflecting how serious SIGINT is considered to be, one of those circumstances includes leaking the contents of intercepted communications, as defined this way by 18 § 798 of the U.S. Code:

Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates … or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes … any classified information … obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government … shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
XtremeJibber2001
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Re: Obama's world

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

madhatter wrote:are you paying attn at all? that is EXACTLY what yesterday's SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE FISA hearing was about...that investigation is likely to continue and probably escalate when the new FBI chief is sworn in...
Right. Which is why POTUS should not renew the FISA act until a conclusion is reached.
madhatter
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Re: Obama's world

Post by madhatter »

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:are you paying attn at all? that is EXACTLY what yesterday's SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE FISA hearing was about...that investigation is likely to continue and probably escalate when the new FBI chief is sworn in...
Right. Which is why POTUS should not renew the FISA act until a conclusion is reached.
has he? doesnt; it expire at the end of this year? fill me in on the details...in any case it;s nothign I'm going to rail against...if there are abuses that's different than just renewing a current law that was abused by the previous administration, an administration that will be proven to be among the most corrupt in US history...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
XtremeJibber2001
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Re: Obama's world

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:are you paying attn at all? that is EXACTLY what yesterday's SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE FISA hearing was about...that investigation is likely to continue and probably escalate when the new FBI chief is sworn in...
Right. Which is why POTUS should not renew the FISA act until a conclusion is reached.
has he? doesnt; it expire at the end of this year? fill me in on the details...in any case it;s nothign I'm going to rail against...if there are abuses that's different than just renewing a current law that was abused by the previous administration, an administration that will be proven to be among the most corrupt in US history...
He hasn't, but I don't expect it to be renewed until the investigation is complete. Trump's homeland security and counterterrorism adviser, Thomas Bossert, has endorsed legislation that would permanently reauthorize foreign surveillance. Personally I think the FISA act should be amended and require a warrant to investigate or monitor any US citizen.

In my opinion, in its current form, it abuses the 4th Amendment of the constitution.
madhatter
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Re: Obama's world

Post by madhatter »

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:are you paying attn at all? that is EXACTLY what yesterday's SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE FISA hearing was about...that investigation is likely to continue and probably escalate when the new FBI chief is sworn in...
Right. Which is why POTUS should not renew the FISA act until a conclusion is reached.
has he? doesnt; it expire at the end of this year? fill me in on the details...in any case it;s nothign I'm going to rail against...if there are abuses that's different than just renewing a current law that was abused by the previous administration, an administration that will be proven to be among the most corrupt in US history...
He hasn't, but I don't expect it to be renewed until the investigation is complete. Trump's homeland security and counterterrorism adviser, Thomas Bossert, has endorsed legislation that would permanently reauthorize foreign surveillance. Personally I think the FISA act should be amended and require a warrant to investigate or monitor any US citizen.

In my opinion, in its current form, it abuses the 4th Amendment of the constitution.
FISA only monitors FOREIGN subjects... any US citizens caught up are supposed to be masked and only unveiled IF they are pertinent to the investigation or have been involved in a crime....otherwise they are anonymous and redacted...SOMEONE chose to unmask flynn and someone perhaps the same someone perhaps not chose to commit a felony by leaking that information publicly...

pretty sure FISA act would require a warrant if an investigation into a US citizen first identified by FISA were to be requested...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
XtremeJibber2001
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Re: Obama's world

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

madhatter wrote:FISA only monitors FOREIGN subjects... any US citizens caught up are supposed to be masked and only unveiled IF they are pertinent to the investigation or have been involved in a crime....otherwise they are anonymous and redacted...SOMEONE chose to unmask flynn and someone perhaps the same someone perhaps not chose to commit a felony by leaking that information publicly...

pretty sure FISA act would require a warrant if an investigation into a US citizen first identified by FISA were to be requested...
That's my point, once they're unmasked and identified as a US citizen, no warrant is necessary for continued monitoring of communications. It's a violation of the 4th amendment.
madhatter
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Re: Obama's world

Post by madhatter »

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:FISA only monitors FOREIGN subjects... any US citizens caught up are supposed to be masked and only unveiled IF they are pertinent to the investigation or have been involved in a crime....otherwise they are anonymous and redacted...SOMEONE chose to unmask flynn and someone perhaps the same someone perhaps not chose to commit a felony by leaking that information publicly...

pretty sure FISA act would require a warrant if an investigation into a US citizen first identified by FISA were to be requested...
That's my point, once they're unmasked and identified as a US citizen, no warrant is necessary for continued monitoring of communications. It's a violation of the 4th amendment.
I'm not sure about that but I'll agree with you of that's the case...if a US citizen is unmasked it becomes a domestic surveillance issue and a warrant must be sought...and/ or change the criteria under which an unmasking can occur...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
XtremeJibber2001
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Re: Obama's world

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:FISA only monitors FOREIGN subjects... any US citizens caught up are supposed to be masked and only unveiled IF they are pertinent to the investigation or have been involved in a crime....otherwise they are anonymous and redacted...SOMEONE chose to unmask flynn and someone perhaps the same someone perhaps not chose to commit a felony by leaking that information publicly...

pretty sure FISA act would require a warrant if an investigation into a US citizen first identified by FISA were to be requested...
That's my point, once they're unmasked and identified as a US citizen, no warrant is necessary for continued monitoring of communications. It's a violation of the 4th amendment.
I'm not sure about that but I'll agree with you of that's the case...if a US citizen is unmasked it becomes a domestic surveillance issue and a warrant must be sought...and/ or change the criteria under which an unmasking can occur...
https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet/documen ... ns-privacy
madhatter
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Re: Obama's world

Post by madhatter »

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:FISA only monitors FOREIGN subjects... any US citizens caught up are supposed to be masked and only unveiled IF they are pertinent to the investigation or have been involved in a crime....otherwise they are anonymous and redacted...SOMEONE chose to unmask flynn and someone perhaps the same someone perhaps not chose to commit a felony by leaking that information publicly...

pretty sure FISA act would require a warrant if an investigation into a US citizen first identified by FISA were to be requested...
That's my point, once they're unmasked and identified as a US citizen, no warrant is necessary for continued monitoring of communications. It's a violation of the 4th amendment.
I'm not sure about that but I'll agree with you of that's the case...if a US citizen is unmasked it becomes a domestic surveillance issue and a warrant must be sought...and/ or change the criteria under which an unmasking can occur...
https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet/documen ... ns-privacy

guess it was unclear but I was proposing the bolded after agreeing with/ deferring to your assessment's probability ...I'm not reading the aclu thing, I don't disagree that there are places where the law can be exploited...that's true of many laws...I'm for fixes that work w/o destroying the intended purpose of FISA...if there are any...

the unmasking of flynn was unnecessary and the leaking of his name to the public was a felony, one committed for political purposes with intent to harm the president and interfere with his ability to govern...

since virtually day one of trumps presence as a political figure there has been an all out blitz from the MSM, DNC, republican establishment, embedded democrat sympathizers etc all of it failing to bear any significant fruit, yet it continues daily...It's become quite tiresome and it isn;t winning any D votes anywhere they're needed...no one cares if 100% of california washington ans oregon vote D...outside those borders it only counts for so much and nothing more...

unfortunately whenever there is an R in power the MSM and opposition party(s) will go off the deep end with exaggerated atrocities and endless witch hunts that turn up nothing while producing a virtual quagmire and gridlock of govt...but even then it;s still FAR preferable to the blind eye fawning media when the D's are in power...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
XtremeJibber2001
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Re: Obama's world

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:FISA only monitors FOREIGN subjects... any US citizens caught up are supposed to be masked and only unveiled IF they are pertinent to the investigation or have been involved in a crime....otherwise they are anonymous and redacted...SOMEONE chose to unmask flynn and someone perhaps the same someone perhaps not chose to commit a felony by leaking that information publicly...

pretty sure FISA act would require a warrant if an investigation into a US citizen first identified by FISA were to be requested...
That's my point, once they're unmasked and identified as a US citizen, no warrant is necessary for continued monitoring of communications. It's a violation of the 4th amendment.
I'm not sure about that but I'll agree with you of that's the case...if a US citizen is unmasked it becomes a domestic surveillance issue and a warrant must be sought...and/ or change the criteria under which an unmasking can occur...
https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet/documen ... ns-privacy
guess it was unclear but I was proposing the bolded after agreeing with/ deferring to your assessment's probability ...I'm not reading the aclu thing, I don't disagree that there are places where the law can be exploited...that's true of many laws...I'm for fixes that work w/o destroying the intended purpose of FISA...if there are any...

the unmasking of flynn was unnecessary and the leaking of his name to the public was a felony, one committed for political purposes with intent to harm the president and interfere with his ability to govern...

since virtually day one of trumps presence as a political figure there has been an all out blitz from the MSM, DNC, republican establishment, embedded democrat sympathizers etc all of it failing to bear any significant fruit, yet it continues daily...It's become quite tiresome and it isn;t winning any D votes anywhere they're needed...no one cares if 100% of california washington ans oregon vote D...outside those borders it only counts for so much and nothing more...

unfortunately whenever there is an R in power the MSM and opposition party(s) will go off the deep end with exaggerated atrocities and endless witch hunts that turn up nothing while producing a virtual quagmire and gridlock of govt...but even then it;s still FAR preferable to the blind eye fawning media when the D's are in power...

You keep circling back to Flynn. The mechanism, introduced by someone from the GOP and extended by Obama, permitted the spying on Flynn and may permit spying on other US citizens is the FISA program, which essentially is built to circumvent an American's 4th amendment rights. If you have a problem with unmasking it's because the controls, as designed, are not strong enough to prevent abuse. This is not a R or D issue. Trump should not renew the program until stronger controls and policies can be established.
madhatter
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Re: Obama's world

Post by madhatter »

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
madhatter wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
That's my point, once they're unmasked and identified as a US citizen, no warrant is necessary for continued monitoring of communications. It's a violation of the 4th amendment.
I'm not sure about that but I'll agree with you of that's the case...if a US citizen is unmasked it becomes a domestic surveillance issue and a warrant must be sought...and/ or change the criteria under which an unmasking can occur...
https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet/documen ... ns-privacy
guess it was unclear but I was proposing the bolded after agreeing with/ deferring to your assessment's probability ...I'm not reading the aclu thing, I don't disagree that there are places where the law can be exploited...that's true of many laws...I'm for fixes that work w/o destroying the intended purpose of FISA...if there are any...

the unmasking of flynn was unnecessary and the leaking of his name to the public was a felony, one committed for political purposes with intent to harm the president and interfere with his ability to govern...

since virtually day one of trumps presence as a political figure there has been an all out blitz from the MSM, DNC, republican establishment, embedded democrat sympathizers etc all of it failing to bear any significant fruit, yet it continues daily...It's become quite tiresome and it isn;t winning any D votes anywhere they're needed...no one cares if 100% of california washington ans oregon vote D...outside those borders it only counts for so much and nothing more...

unfortunately whenever there is an R in power the MSM and opposition party(s) will go off the deep end with exaggerated atrocities and endless witch hunts that turn up nothing while producing a virtual quagmire and gridlock of govt...but even then it;s still FAR preferable to the blind eye fawning media when the D's are in power...

You keep circling back to Flynn. circling back??? we are talking about the current FISA hearings regarding flynn, comey and the president...The mechanism, introduced by someone from the GOP and extended by Obama, permitted the spying on Flynn and may permit spying on other US citizens is the FISA program, which essentially is built to circumvent an American's 4th amendment rights. no it isn;t it's built to allow spying on non-citizens and to protect US citizens should they get caught up in foreign surveillance...rice over rode the rest of the agency safeguards and exposed his name then it was leaked either by her or someone else it doens't matter who... If you have a problem with unmasking it's because the controls, as designed, are not strong enough to prevent abuse. This is not a R or D issue. Trump should not renew the program until stronger controls and policies can be established.
right now this is a HUGE r and D issue as the D's used this to illegally for political gain against the R's...

I agree w the bold the problem though lies in a complacent obama administration and a media willing to give it cover...the obvious wrongs have been pointed out continuously but they've been downplayed in the media and thwarted in congress w hep from the media...

that doesn't mean we shouldn't tighten up those openings that allowed the unmasking and leaking for political purposes...but the senior govt officials are supposed to be trustworthy with top secret and confidential information and protocols and handle them appropriately without the need for oversight...

again all the other agencies saw no need for unmasking ( and subsequent investigation has revealed nothing illegal in regards to flynn) yet somehow his name was unmasked by rice and astonishingly leaked to the NYT.... :roll: this is abuse of govt office, dereliction of duty and willful misconduct...we already have laws in regards to that...

I'm fine w him not renewing it but I'm not calling for it, I don't care right now...low priority for me esp w no D's able to exploit it...I'd prefer not to see R's exploit it as well and we have no evidence of trump doing so...but I'm gonna play CNBC,MSNBC,CNN,ABC,NBC et al and feign ignorance and disinterest in such folly " as if that would ever happen" :banana: :banana: :banana:
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
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