More Muslim Violence

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Coydog
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by Coydog »

madhatter wrote:well except there isn't a law enacted by congress we are talking about here...we are talking about an executive order where the president at his discretion and by proclamation can impose whatever restrictions he wants for however long he wants...the previous EO was struck down on specific language that language has been eliminated...where does the current EO fail to fall in line w the presidents privilege as chief executive spelled out above?
The Key Word for Travel Ban Is 'Animus'

Now that the U.S. Supreme Court has been asked to consider President Donald Trump’s travel ban, there’s one word you need to focus on: animus. In legalese, it means an illegitimate prejudice. It was the key to the lower court decisions freezing the ban. And it’s one of the master concepts in swing voter Justice Anthony Kennedy’s jurisprudence. You might even say that animus is the opposite side of the coin to Kennedy’s other great master concept, dignity.

If Kennedy reads Trump’s executive order temporarily blocking immigration from six predominantly Muslim countries as an exercise of anti-Muslim animus, the ban will fall at the court. And that seems highly likely, given that it would be difficult for the justice to downplay Trump’s prejudice without betraying his own legacy.

...

For Kennedy, animus became a master concept in his 2013 gay-marriage decision, U.S. v. Windsor, which struck down the federal Defense of Marriage Act. There animus came to be paired with Kennedy’s concept of dignity.

In the Windsor case, Kennedy wrote that DOMA sought to injure gay couples who were allowed to marry by state law. The law was therefore motivated by “improper animus or purpose,” Kennedy said, citing his own Romer decision in support. (Scalia, on cue, responded that Congress was motivated not by “animus” but by “stabilizing prudence” in the presence of conflicting state laws on marriage.)

And in the Windsor case, Kennedy also famously made the point, repeated two years later in Obergefell v. Hodges, the right-to-gay-marriage case, that allowing a couple to marry conferred dignity on the partners. Taking away the right to marry therefore produced “injury and indignity.”

By implication, then, to treat a group of people with unconstitutional animus is to deny them dignity -- which adds up to a constitutional violation.

Presumably, at least some of the Supreme Court’s conservatives, channeling Scalia, will want to say that Trump’s executive order on its face does nothing to demean Muslims. But Kennedy will be under enormous pressure to pay attention to Trump’s public statements before and after the election, statements that led the lower courts to say that the travel ban was the product of anti-Muslim animus.

There remain technical questions of whether the ban violates the Constitution’s establishment clause, the free exercise clause or even the equal protection clause. But the bottom line for Kennedy is that if he ignores the animus issue that the lower courts emphasized, he runs the risk of undercutting his legacy.

For what it’s worth, I find it almost impossible to believe that Kennedy, at 80, would want to sign an opinion closing his eyes to animus, which he himself did so much to make into a constitutional touchstone. That should be enough to make sure the travel ban doesn’t take effect.
madhatter
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:
madhatter wrote:well except there isn't a law enacted by congress we are talking about here...we are talking about an executive order where the president at his discretion and by proclamation can impose whatever restrictions he wants for however long he wants...the previous EO was struck down on specific language that language has been eliminated...where does the current EO fail to fall in line w the presidents privilege as chief executive spelled out above?
The Key Word for Travel Ban Is 'Animus'

Now that the U.S. Supreme Court has been asked to consider President Donald Trump’s travel ban, there’s one word you need to focus on: animus. In legalese, it means an illegitimate prejudice. It was the key to the lower court decisions freezing the ban. And it’s one of the master concepts in swing voter Justice Anthony Kennedy’s jurisprudence. You might even say that animus is the opposite side of the coin to Kennedy’s other great master concept, dignity.

If Kennedy reads Trump’s executive order temporarily blocking immigration from six predominantly Muslim countries as an exercise of anti-Muslim animus, the ban will fall at the court. And that seems highly likely, given that it would be difficult for the justice to downplay Trump’s prejudice without betraying his own legacy.kinda hard to see that when far more predominately muslim countries are not on that list, the criteria for that list is not religion but the lack of stable govt and the list was created by the previous administration....but feel free to grasp away... :roll:

...

For Kennedy, animus became a master concept in his 2013 gay-marriage decision, U.S. v. Windsor, which struck down the federal Defense of Marriage Act. There animus came to be paired with Kennedy’s concept of dignity.

In the Windsor case, Kennedy wrote that DOMA sought to injure gay couples who were allowed to marry by state law. The law was therefore motivated by “improper animus or purpose,” Kennedy said, citing his own Romer decision in support. (Scalia, on cue, responded that Congress was motivated not by “animus” but by “stabilizing prudence” in the presence of conflicting state laws on marriage.)

And in the Windsor case, Kennedy also famously made the point, repeated two years later in Obergefell v. Hodges, the right-to-gay-marriage case, that allowing a couple to marry conferred dignity on the partners. Taking away the right to marry therefore produced “injury and indignity.”

By implication, then, to treat a group of people with unconstitutional animus is to deny them dignity -- which adds up to a constitutional violation.

Presumably, at least some of the Supreme Court’s conservatives, channeling Scalia, will want to say that Trump’s executive order on its face does nothing to demean Muslims. But Kennedy will be under enormous pressure to pay attention to Trump’s public statements before and after the election, statements that led the lower courts to say that the travel ban was the product of anti-Muslim animus.

There remain technical questions of whether the ban violates the Constitution’s establishment clause, the free exercise clause or even the equal protection clause. But the bottom line for Kennedy is that if he ignores the animus issue that the lower courts emphasized, he runs the risk of undercutting his legacy.

For what it’s worth, I find it almost impossible to believe that Kennedy, at 80, would want to sign an opinion closing his eyes to animus, which he himself did so much to make into a constitutional touchstone. That should be enough to make sure the travel ban doesn’t take effect.
set that precedent here and you've destroyed any semblance of law...and where are your cries for ginsburg to recuse based on "animus"? and how does animus trump " whenever, by proclamation, w any restrictions for however long"?

you're simply grasping desperately at straws for any possible way to discredit the president, it's childish and tiresome...we get it yer upset ya lost, come up w some kind of legitimate beef...the argument you make here is crap...is the EO also socioeconomically discriminating because it involves predominately poor people? gender biased? racial biased? previously it was his religious persecution exemption now it's "animus" what next?

everyday a new outrage from the left that resonates with fewer and fewer voters outside the handful of blue states that once constituted the impervious blue wall the left loved to shove in the face of the right...those states aren't going back for more obama/clinton progressive garbage policies regardless of what the remaining whiny left tries to do to block trump...

wherever progressivism has been rejected in 2016 it won't be being embraced in 2018/2020 simply because the duly elected opposition to it was blocked...eventually a couple a 2-3 more justices will need replacing via a simple majority vote...district courts will see new conservative appointees too...so enjoy what little activist court remains if what remains even has the power to legislate from the bench cuz it won;t be forever before that balance tilts heavily away from left wing progressive legislate from the bench activism...the backlash has already been enourmous sweeping across much of the country at every level of govt....eventually and inevitably the swamp will be drained...
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Coydog
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by Coydog »

madhatter wrote:set that precedent here and you've destroyed any semblance of law Kennedy already set that precedent and the rule of law seems adequately intact...and where are your cries for ginsburg to recuse based on "animus"? well there's a surprise, a liberal justice exercised free speech to express disdain for Gump - as far as I know, the Constitution does not require justices to be non-partisan and recusal is solely up to Ginsburg herself - about as likely as Gorsuch recusing himself because he was appointed by Gump and how does animus trump " whenever, by proclamation, w any restrictions for however long"? we call it the Constitution

you're simply grasping desperately at straws for any possible way to discredit the president, he appears to be doing that just fine all by his lonesome it's childish and tiresome like Gump?...we get it yer upset ya lost, come up w some kind of legitimate beef...the argument you make here is crap...we'll see, probably gonna come down to Kennedy and his animus doctrine is at the very core of the opposition's argument is the EO also socioeconomically discriminating because it involves predominately poor people? gender biased? racial biased? previously it was his religious persecution exemption now it's "animus" what next? same thing all along: anti-Muslim animus

everyday a new outrage from the left that resonates with fewer and fewer voters outside the handful of blue states that once constituted the impervious blue wall the left loved to shove in the face of the right...those states aren't going back for more obama/clinton progressive garbage policies regardless of what the remaining whiny left tries to do to block trump... we both know Gump would have been thoroughly decimated if he had to run against Obama even with all the Russian meddling. Oh, and remember the majority of (American) voters were against Gump as constantly confirmed by his nearly continuous record low approval ratings

wherever progressivism has been rejected in 2016 it won't be being embraced in 2018/2020 simply because the duly elected opposition to it was blocked...but if that opposition proves to be inept or corrupt or both or if those much promised manufacturing jobs don't come back or if promises of lower health care premiums don't materialize or any number of broken promises (how's that wall coming? Hillary locked up yet?) cause fickle Gump voters to regret electing a con man eventually a couple a 2-3 more justices will need replacing via a simple majority vote...can't wait to see who has control of the Senate when that time comes district courts will see new conservative appointees too...so enjoy what little activist court remains if what remains even has the power to legislate from the bench cuz it won;t be forever before that balance tilts heavily away from left wing progressive legislate from the bench activism...the backlash has already been enourmous sweeping across much of the country at every level of govt....eventually and inevitably the swamp will be drained to make room for the Gump cesspool...
Anyhoo, Thursday should be interesting.
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by freeski »

Bubba wrote:
freeski wrote: Another muslim attack in Paris. Some say not a big deal. Others say I'm glad I wasn't wacked in the head with a hammer today. :shock:
Also, it's official, the United States is fighting in the ISIS capital of Raqqa. We're going to rocka your world. Including butt not limited to death from above with burning bodies. :like This will go slow as we're hoping to wipe out ISIS with not even a smidgen of US casualties. Go Trump :!:
You could at least wait until the Paris police release the name of the assailant before reaching a conclusion. :roll:
Do you think it was bigfoot :?:
Happy Ramadan. :yawn
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madhatter
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:
madhatter wrote:set that precedent here and you've destroyed any semblance of law Kennedy already set that precedent and the rule of law seems adequately intact...and where are your cries for ginsburg
to recuse based on "animus"? well there's a surprise, a liberal justice exercised free speech to express disdain for Gump - as far as I know, the Constitution does not require justices to be non-partisan and recusal is solely up to Ginsburg herself - wonder if Gorsuch will recuse himself since he was appointed by Gump? more apples to nothign comparisons, the issue isn;t who appointed her it;s that sje has shown clear animus towards the president...and how does animus trump " whenever, by proclamation, w any restrictions for however long"? we call it the Constitution

you're simply grasping desperately at straws for any possible way to discredit the president, he appears to be doing that just fine all by his lonesome it's childish and tiresome like Gump?...we get it yer upset ya lost, come up w some kind of legitimate beef...the argument you make here is crap...we'll see, probably gonna come down to Kennedy and his animus doctrine is at the very core of the opposition's argument is the EO also socioeconomically discriminating because it involves predominately poor people? gender biased? racial biased? previously it was his religious persecution exemption now it's "animus" what next? same thing all along: anti-Muslim animus so fantasy...weak fantasy...your proof of animus was the persecution exemption clause now it's something he may have once said but isn't written anywhere in the law but could possibly be construed as animus despite the fact that the criteria for choosing those countries was simply following the previous administrations policy and improving upon it?

everyday a new outrage from the left that resonates with fewer and fewer voters outside the handful of blue states that once constituted the impervious blue wall the left loved to shove in the face of the right...those states aren't going back for more obama/clinton progressive garbage policies regardless of what the remaining whiny left tries to do to block trump... we both know Gump would have been thoroughly decimated if he had to run against Obama even with all the Russian meddling. Oh, and remember the majority of (American) voters were against Gump as constantly confirmed by his nearly continuous record low approval ratingsthe falcons woulda beat the patriots if the game ended at half time and tons of people hate the patriots big deal...the majority of voters in most states were for him that's how we elect presidents here....more libby spin that holds as much water as a sieve...

wherever progressivism has been rejected in 2016 it won't be being embraced in 2018/2020 simply because the duly elected opposition to it was blocked...but if that opposition proves to be inept or corrupt or both or if those much promised manufacturing jobs don't come back or if promises of lower health care premiums don't materialize or any number of broken promises (how's that wall coming? Hillary locked up yet?) cause fickle Gump voters to regret electing a con man still no reason to go back to progressive failures...eventually a couple a 2-3 more justices will need replacing via a simple majority vote...can't wait to see who has control of the Senate when that time comes gonna be about 4 more years bfore there;s any chance of a a D senate, even then good luck running liz warren or hilldog...district courts will see new conservative appointees too...so enjoy what little activist court remains if what remains even has the power to legislate from the bench cuz it won;t be forever before that balance tilts heavily away from left wing progressive legislate from the bench activism...the backlash has already been enourmous sweeping across much of the country at every level of govt....eventually and inevitably the swamp will be drained to make room for the Gump cesspool...
Anyhoo, Thursday should be interesting.
doubt it...

I'm still not seeing where the constitution applies to non-citizens wishing to enter the country or where the privilege of coming to the US trumps the clearly written law which states again:
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."
aliens on foreign soil are not protected under the constitution and have no rights as such...nor is there any right of passage or entry to the US and the president by proclamation may impose any restrictions he deems necessary for as long as he deems necessary against any aliens or class of aliens he deems detrimental......




your entire argument rest on a wing and prayer stretch of reality in the face of clear written language...I hope our court system isn't the banana republic clown show farce you seem to hope it is...
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Coydog
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by Coydog »

madhatter wrote: I'm still not seeing where the constitution applies to non-citizens wishing to enter the country or where the privilege of coming to the US trumps the clearly written law which states again:
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."
aliens on foreign soil are not protected under the constitution and have no rights as such...nor is there any right of passage or entry to the US and the president by proclamation may impose any restrictions he deems necessary for as long as he deems necessary against any aliens or class of aliens he deems detrimental......
Has nothing to do with the "aliens on foreign soil are not protected under the constitution and have no rights as such". So far the plaintiffs have successfully argued the Gump Travel Ban 2.0 violates the Establishment Clause. They argue the ban is a gussied up, but pretty much transparent attempt for the government to disfavor the Muslim religion. Gump's own statements support this. Arguing that it is not a Muslim ban because it doesn't ban all Muslims is as nonsensical as saying the female black business owner who said she fired the white guy because she hates white guys did not act out of animus because she didn't fire all the white guys.

The Ginsburg recusal fantasy is more right wingnut silliness. If Kennedy sides with the liberals, the vote is 5-4. In that case, if Ginsburg had recused herself, the vote would have been 4-4 and the lower court's decision is upheld. If Kennedy goes the other way, doesn't matter how Ginsburg votes.

So it appears to all hang on Kennedy and his application of his animus doctrine, though anything is possible, like imagine the tweets in the unlikely event Gorsuch votes against the ban.
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:
madhatter wrote: I'm still not seeing where the constitution applies to non-citizens wishing to enter the country or where the privilege of coming to the US trumps the clearly written law which states again:
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."
aliens on foreign soil are not protected under the constitution and have no rights as such...nor is there any right of passage or entry to the US and the president by proclamation may impose any restrictions he deems necessary for as long as he deems necessary against any aliens or class of aliens he deems detrimental......
Has nothing to do with the "aliens on foreign soil are not protected under the constitution and have no rights as such". So far the plaintiffs have successfully argued the Gump Travel Ban 2.0 violates the Establishment Clause. yeah so far two left wing courts have conjured up wild stretches of reality we'll see how far that goes, kinda the whole point of bringing it to SCOTUS...and exactly who are the plaintiffs and what is their standing?They argue the ban is a gussied up, but pretty much transparent attempt for the government to disfavor the Muslim religion. Gump's own statements support this. Arguing that it is not a Muslim ban because it doesn't ban all Muslims is as nonsensical as saying the female black business owner who said she fired the white guy because she hates white guys did not act out of animus because she didn't fire all the white guys.really? yer argument basically says anywhere there is a muslim or any law that affects muslims it's immediately null and void under the animus clause cuz trump said muslim ban in 2015....that's the definition of nonsensical if ever there was one...the EO is quite clear it restricts travel from nations that do not have stable govts or the measn to verify the identity of it's citizens who wish to travel to the us...IDGAF what the kangaroo court ninth district shopped judges opinions are...that's exactly why trump was voted in, to get rid of these activists judges and bureaucrats who circumvent the law by legislating from the bench...

The Ginsburg recusal fantasy is more right wingnut silliness. If Kennedy sides with the liberals, the vote is 5-4. In that case, if Ginsburg had recused herself, the vote would have been 4-4 and the lower court's decision is upheld. If Kennedy goes the other way, doesn't matter how Ginsburg votes.

So it appears to all hang on Kennedy and his application of his animus doctrine, though anything is possible, like imagine the tweets in the unlikely event Gorsuch votes against the ban.
it doesn't matter whether ginsburgs vote is the deciding one it matters that she's show clear bias...that's the biggest issue here, you want the law to apply when you decide it matters and to not apply when you think it shouldn't...same with evidence, scant circumstantial evidence is all you need when looking to convict, but the benefit of the doubt or a plausible excuse is all you need t for an acquittal should you be seeking one of those...some are always more equal than others from the liberal/progressive perspective...
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by freeski »

muslim woman attacks tire store in Toronto. Her weapon of choice, golf club. :|
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Coydog
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by Coydog »

madhatter wrote:it doesn't matter whether ginsburgs vote is the deciding one it matters to Trumpeteers maybe, not the law that she's show clear bias...that's the biggest issue here, you want the law to apply when you decide it matters and to not apply when you think it shouldn't...same with evidence, scant circumstantial evidence is all you need when looking to convict, but the benefit of the doubt or a plausible excuse is all you need t for an acquittal should you be seeking one of those...some are always more equal than others from the liberal/progressive perspective...I would say you have that exactly backwards
Just like Gump, Ginsburg has every right to express disdain for anyone she chooses. If you disagree, please post the appropriate US code that mandates she must recuse herself with all things Gump.

What Trumpeteers seem to have trouble understanding is that as much as they would like, Gump is not the emperor. He may have wide latitude as POTUS, but he is never above the Constitution. Never. Our Constitution defines and limits the rights of government, it does not confer rights to the people because we already have those rights. Of course, from time to time through the legislative process we agree to limit or modify some of our rights ideally for the benefit of all.

This particular EO is being questioned under the Establishment Clause because we the people are questioning if the government is breaching its constitutional limits. This is healthy and should be embraced by the right and the left. Maybe the EO is really just a temporary travel restriction to improve our vetting process, but maybe it’s crafted to lead to an effective government disfavoring of a particular religion. Though it seems Trumpteers can't see it, enough rational questions have arisen and Gump’s own words more than justify closer legal scrutiny. It will be an interesting test.
madhatter
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:
madhatter wrote:it doesn't matter whether ginsburgs vote is the deciding one it matters to Trumpeteers maybe, not the law that she's show clear bias...that's the biggest issue here, you want the law to apply when you decide it matters and to not apply when you think it shouldn't...same with evidence, scant circumstantial evidence is all you need when looking to convict, but the benefit of the doubt or a plausible excuse is all you need t for an acquittal should you be seeking one of those...some are always more equal than others from the liberal/progressive perspective...I would say you have that exactly backwards
Just like Gump, Ginsburg has every right to express disdain for anyone she chooses. If you disagree, please post the appropriate US code that mandates she must recuse herself with all things Gump.recusal is never mandated by code but protocols of conduct...particularly at the SCOTUS level where there is no one that can demand it...trump has no duty of impartiality at all whereas a sitting judge most certainly does...that ginsburg has shown such disdain not for the policies but for the man himself is a clear act of prejudice that casts a doubt on her ability to be impartial...again comparing apples to carburetors or some other disjointed unrelated and irrelevant object...

What Trumpeteers seem to have trouble understanding is that as much as they would like, Gump is not the emperor. He may have wide latitude as POTUS, but he is never above the Constitution. Never. Our Constitution defines and limits the rights of government, it does not confer rights to the people because we already have those rights. Of course, from time to time through the legislative process we agree to limit or modify some of our rights ideally for the benefit of all.

This particular EO is being questioned under the Establishment Clause because we the people are questioning if the government is breaching its constitutional limits. This is healthy and should be embraced by the right and the left. Maybe the EO is really just a temporary travel restriction to improve our vetting process, but maybe it’s crafted to lead to an effective government disfavoring of a particular religion. Though it seems Trumpteers can't see it, enough rational questions have arisen and Gump’s own words more than justify closer legal scrutiny. It will be an interesting test.
if that were the case that would be fine, but it's not...the left has gone full fvcktard batchit crazy over losing the election just like they did in 2000...it's what petulant children do...the EO is crafted to combat extremism and the stated desire of ISIS to infiltrate the refugee population in order to gain access to western countries...provide reliable means of positive identification of your citizens and you can come off the list of countries identified by the obama administration as having failed govts...


COVFEFE!!!!
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by madhatter »

Image

yep they're that clueless...
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by Coydog »

Hmmm, just seems like regular statements of alternate facts.
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:Hmmm, just seems like regular statements of alternate facts.
well we all know there's no such thing as an impartial liberal judge...they're there to exact an agenda by legislating from the bench...the written law is irrelevant to them...
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by freeski »

London looks like a pay back attack. Glad it wasn't terrorism. :|
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Re: More Muslim Violence

Post by freeski »

Update: Appears to be just what happens in big cities. No need to over react. This might just be a traffic accident. Let's wait for all of the facts.
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