1st Amendment Rights

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deadheadskier
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1st Amendment Rights

Post by deadheadskier »

What do folks think should be the limits to 1st Amendment rights?

In the wake of Orlando, there's been a number of things Trump has said that I disagree with, but one that I do agree with is the need for surveillance of mosques with known ties to radicalization. And it's not just mosques, but any place of worship, club etc. that promotes acts of violence against other Americans.

I saw this article and video this morning.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2016/06/ ... ub-attack/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To me this goes beyond what should be the limits of free speech. We often talk that one of the reasons there's so much violence in the USA is because of our failure to treat the mentally ill. In the case of violence, shouldn't criminal insanity be a large part of the discussion? Aren't those who promote jihad criminally insane and a danger to society and themselves? Should such people be allowed to walk the streets as ticking time bombs? Should a pastor like this man be allowed to promote violence against gays even if it's his wish that it's the government that carries out the violence?

I guess I just see the best plan to reducing violence is to recognize the threats before it happens as well as eliminate what can create such radical thoughts and behavior. Would anyone be surprised if a member of this man's church went out and committed a hate crime against a gay person? I certainly wouldn't.
madhatter
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by madhatter »

deadheadskier wrote:What do folks think should be the limits to 1st Amendment rights?

In the wake of Orlando, there's been a number of things Trump has said that I disagree with, but one that I do agree with is the need for surveillance of mosques with known ties to radicalization. And it's not just mosques, but any place of worship, club etc. that promotes acts of violence against other Americans.

I saw this article and video this morning.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2016/06/ ... ub-attack/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To me this goes beyond what should be the limits of free speech. We often talk that one of the reasons there's so much violence in the USA is because of our failure to treat the mentally ill. In the case of violence, shouldn't criminal insanity be a large part of the discussion? Aren't those who promote jihad criminally insaneno, they know what they are doing they just believe its right,ie the "good hate"... and a danger to society and themselves? yes of course they are Should such people be allowed to walk the streets as ticking time bombs? probably notShould a pastor like this man be allowed to promote violence against gays probably noteven if it's his wish that it's the government that carries out the violence?slippery slope where I mostly liken it to "yelling fire" in any situation other than fire, it would seem his direct words are inciting violence regardless of religious freedom...

I guess I just see the best plan to reducing violence is to recognize the threats before it happens as well as eliminate what can create such radical thoughts and behavior. thoughts and behavior can never be fully controlled, public approval/disapproval goes a long way but it also leads to mob rule and abuse of minority opinions, soooo....I guess it's up to "culture" itself?Would anyone be surprised if a member of this man's church went out and committed a hate crime against a gay person? definitely not...I certainly wouldn't.
IF said mosque or a person attending said mosque is under investigation for some purpose I see no problem with covert surveillance w a sealed court order...but if it's 24/7 video/audio surveillance then probably no...plenty of places are hotbeds for criminal enterprise and the like but resources only can go so far...

one thing about trump, he forces issues into the mainstream discussion....
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steamboat1
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by steamboat1 »

NYPD has been doing surveillance for years as I'm sure other gov't agencies have been doing as well. In fact the NYPD just had a law suit thrown out of court about their surveillance of NJ mosques. The ruling is being appealed. Surveillance is something that is already being done.
deadheadskier
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by deadheadskier »

I suppose the big hurdle is that a crooked Imam or Pastor could skirt around the issue by just reciting the passages in the books that call for the violence.

The vast majority of religious people are peaceful, but it's still used as a tool for social control. The problem is that sick people know that method of control is easy to use to rally support for violent purposes. Do this because God/Allah whatever says so.
steamboat1
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by steamboat1 »

You mean like Obama's preacher?

madhatter
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by madhatter »

deadheadskier wrote:I suppose the big hurdle is that a crooked Imam or Pastor could skirt around the issue by just reciting the passages in the books that call for the violence. pretty much with every law in a country that lives by "rule of law" vs "absolute rule" the onus is on the individual to voluntarily comply with little to no physical restrictions necessary, it's the cornerstone of a free society....

The vast majority of religious people are peaceful, but it was invented as a tool for social control. The problem is that sick people know that method of control is easy to use to rally support for violent purposes. Do this because God/Allah whatever says so.power corrupts ...
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deadheadskier
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by deadheadskier »

That guy is an ahole, but he's not calling on people or the government to kill anyone in that speech.
madhatter
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by madhatter »

always a fine line, should he be under investigation though? I dunno about that either...so where do you draw the line? as far as anyone knows no one wright "preached" to went out and committed a violent crime ( or any crime) as a result...
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deadheadskier
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by deadheadskier »

I'm talking about that speech specifically. He's condemning the government in an aggressive fashion. If that were illegal half this forum would be serving a life sentence, myself included. Lol

Maybe some of his other speeches call for violence against innocent people, which I would have a problem with like the other pastor. First time I've ever watched a speech of his.
steamboat1
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by steamboat1 »

deadheadskier wrote:Maybe some of his other speeches call for violence against innocent people
No it's in that speech towards the end. "Violence against innocents. it's in the book" he said.
deadheadskier
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by deadheadskier »

steamboat1 wrote:
deadheadskier wrote:Maybe some of his other speeches call for violence against innocent people
No it's in that speech towards the end. "Violence against innocents. it's in the book" he said.
I'm not following you. He utters killing innocent people it's in the Bible. You interpret that as him calling on his followers or the government to go out and kill people? If that's what he's calling for than yes, I have an issue with it.
steamboat1
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by steamboat1 »

God Damn America!!!
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Bubba
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by Bubba »

As long as we're on the subject of the Bill of Rights, let's look at a 4th Amendment decision just handed down.

Supreme Court rules 5-3 that mistakes by officer don’t undermine conviction

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... ml?ref=yfp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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biged
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Re: 1st Amendment Rights

Post by biged »

An interesting article on the Bill of Rights.
http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/20/the-s ... -of-rights
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