Trump Presidency

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madhatter
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by madhatter »

Bubba wrote:
freeski wrote:SS is talking about Medicaid (expanded Obama care) not Medicare.
Ummm....I think SS spoke clearly enough for himself. "Health care is not a federal issue it's a state issue."
nonetheless there exists a federal program into which SS was required to pay...of course he;s going to continue to participate in the program especially when he is presumably collecting on the years of required participation as a contributor...You've made the same argument before ( paraphrasing) One can be against a particular pending law or "rule" yet still participate or benefit from said law should it be enforced or otherwise come to fruition...I'll add that more often than not participation is not optional, at least on the paying in end...


should HC be a state issue, a federal issue or a personal issue? guess there are pro's and cons to every one of those positions...
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deadheadskier
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by deadheadskier »

For issues of national economic interest the federal government will always have to have a major role in healthcare.

Anyone want to take a crack at the question I presented shortski? That question is relevant to almost all 50 states by the way.
madhatter
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by madhatter »

deadheadskier wrote:
shortski wrote:
Health care is not a federal issue it's a state issue.
Without Federal assistance, how many hospitals do you think would exist in Vermont? What do you think the results would be to the Vermont economy?
the hospitals, unless they are federal hospitals, don't get federal assistance, the hospitals patrons do...so to answer your question from there:

how many hospitals would exist? as many as could survive on their revenue...that number could be zero if they were required to treat patients ( which is where the whole public/private issue becomes blurred)...or if there were too few patients to be viable ( a very real concern in rural areas)...

vermont economic effect? far too many variables to say...safe to say it wouldn't add to the economy...

as always the biggest problem with healthcare is that it's intertwined with health insurance, which like any insurance is "risk management"...when the "risk model" can't take into account all the variables and manage them accordingly, problems arise...


how much risk is there in insuring a 5 yr old home in a residential neighborhood w full time paid police and fire protection? in a rural area w all volunteers and limited access to water? when it's on fire already? unless the ins co can weigh each of these variables and assign a risk and thus a dollar cost to manage that risk, you have a failed model...

insurance does not and can not make goods and services cost less than their actual dollar value....
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
deadheadskier
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by deadheadskier »

madhatter wrote:
deadheadskier wrote:
shortski wrote:
Health care is not a federal issue it's a state issue.
Without Federal assistance, how many hospitals do you think would exist in Vermont? What do you think the results would be to the Vermont economy?
the hospitals, unless they are federal hospitals, don't get federal assistance, the hospitals patrons do...so to answer your question from there:

how many hospitals would exist? as many as could survive on their revenue...that number could be zero if they were required to treat patients ( which is where the whole public/private issue becomes blurred)...or if there were too few patients to be viable ( a very real concern in rural areas)...

vermont economic effect? far too many variables to say...safe to say it wouldn't add to the economy...

as always the biggest problem with healthcare is that it's intertwined with health insurance, which like any insurance is "risk management"...when the "risk model" can't take into account all the variables and manage them accordingly, problems arise...


how much risk is there in insuring a 5 yr old home in a residential neighborhood w full time paid police and fire protection? in a rural area w all volunteers and limited access to water? when it's on fire already? unless the ins co can weigh each of these variables and assign a risk and thus a dollar cost to manage that risk, you have a failed model...

insurance does not and can not make goods and services cost less than their actual dollar value....
Non Federal hospitals don't receive direct federal assistance only their patrons? Yeah, that's a big swing and a wiff hatter

There are over 1300 Critical Access Hospitals in this country. Many of Vermont's hospitals are Critical Access facilities. A very large portion of these facilities would not survive without direct federal assistance. They receive millions of dollars in grant money to renovate and modernize their facilities and equipment. Many receive grant money to help fund operations when the revenue they take in from either private insurance or federal insurance falls short. Further, many of these hospitals are staffed with physicians that are only there because they participate in federal loan forgiveness programs by agreeing to work in under served areas of the country. You and I pay for the education of these doctors with our federal tax dollars.

Now, let's take a look at who these hospitals primarily serve. They are primarily in place to offer access to treatment for people in the agriculture, forestry and raw materials industries. How many farmers and other workers in rural industries are going to keep up their way of life when instead having access to emergency care within 35 miles, they end up having to travel 100 miles or more? Employment in these fields would crash without the network of Critical Access Hospitals as those populations of people migrate to where they have access to Healthcare. This is without even touching on the insurance side of things.

The libertarian mindset of free market capitalism simply does not work when it comes to healthcare. There will always be a need for massive federal assistance in healthcare if we are to feed this country and supply the raw materials that numerous industries rely on to exist.
madhatter
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by madhatter »

deadheadskier wrote:
madhatter wrote:
deadheadskier wrote:
shortski wrote:
Health care is not a federal issue it's a state issue.
Without Federal assistance, how many hospitals do you think would exist in Vermont? What do you think the results would be to the Vermont economy?
the hospitals, unless they are federal hospitals, don't get federal assistance, the hospitals patrons do...so to answer your question from there:

how many hospitals would exist? as many as could survive on their revenue...that number could be zero if they were required to treat patients ( which is where the whole public/private issue becomes blurred)...or if there were too few patients to be viable ( a very real concern in rural areas)...

vermont economic effect? far too many variables to say...safe to say it wouldn't add to the economy...

as always the biggest problem with healthcare is that it's intertwined with health insurance, which like any insurance is "risk management"...when the "risk model" can't take into account all the variables and manage them accordingly, problems arise...


how much risk is there in insuring a 5 yr old home in a residential neighborhood w full time paid police and fire protection? in a rural area w all volunteers and limited access to water? when it's on fire already? unless the ins co can weigh each of these variables and assign a risk and thus a dollar cost to manage that risk, you have a failed model...

insurance does not and can not make goods and services cost less than their actual dollar value....
Non Federal hospitals don't receive direct federal assistance only their patrons? Yeah, that's a big swing and a wiff hatter

There are over 1300 Critical Access Hospitals in this country. Many of Vermont's hospitals are Critical Access facilities. A very large portion of these facilities would not survive without direct federal assistance. They receive millions of dollars in grant money to renovate and modernize their facilities and equipment. Many receive grant money to help fund operations when the revenue they take in from either private insurance or federal insurance falls short. Further, many of these hospitals are staffed with physicians that are only there because they participate in federal loan forgiveness programs by agreeing to work in under served areas of the country. You and I pay for the education of these doctors with our federal tax dollars. agreed, but we pay for lots of other education too, the benefit there is to the recipient of the education even if they "pay it back" by working it off in a public service positions...Again I concede that federal dollars find their way in there in large quantities, same w the construction industry, defense industry etc

Now, let's take a look at who these hospitals primarily serve. They are primarily in place to offer access to treatment for people in the agriculture, forestry and raw materials industries. How many farmers and other workers in rural industries are going to keep up their way of life when instead having access to emergency care within 35 miles, they end up having to travel 100 miles or more? Employment in these fields would crash without the network of Critical Access Hospitals as those populations of people migrate to where they have access to Healthcare. so your scenario assumes only VT would not get fed bux all others would? anyone can answer that question but you left out one huge variable, the natural resources are located where they are and that is where the money is and thus where they will migrate to, all else being equal... This is without even touching on the insurance side of things.

The libertarian mindset of free market capitalism simply does not work when it comes to healthcare. There will always be a need for massive federal assistance in healthcare if we are to feed this country and supply the raw materials that numerous industries rely on to exist.so we need collective dollars to ensure that industry gets its raw materials? and that people are fed? and that ls the best way? the only way? we are worlds apart on that...
"The CAH designation is designed to reduce the financial vulnerability of rural hospitals and improve access to healthcare by keeping essential services in rural communities. This is accomplished through cost-based Medicare reimbursement "

https://www.ruralhealthinfo.org/topics/ ... s#how-many" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

of course as I drilled down further I see that the states get federal funding that they then apply through the "flex" program ( which is also a medicare program), that's about as interested in it as I have time for, most of the country won't even bother to inquire...

I'm in no way advocating for all those programs to go away... as always you simply assign an argument or value then rail on it...

my answer to your question still stands as valid as I've already ceded that regardless of how those federal dollars got there, they no longer would in your hypothetical..., your emotional argument is not one of practicality, affordability or any sort of pragmatism at all...It's not even a rebuttal to the answers I provided other than to dispute the way in which federal dollars find their way into a hospital... just "the greater good"...(though I fully agree with who it effects and how much of a detriment the loss of those hospitals would be etc...)

like many things their actual affordability is out of reach of most people, myself included...I just don't see govt as a solution...or as even interested in a solution...at least not one whose primary benefactor is the general populace...
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'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
deadheadskier
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by deadheadskier »

I didn't assign the argument. It was shortski who claimed the feds need to back out of healthcare and leave it to the states. My point is that's virtually impossible without expectation that access would crumble in rural communities. Making a blanket statement like that doesn't account for all the factors I and you have discussed.

But, for his argument, let's kick the can down the line to the state level. Well, that's a problem because the states most on the receiving end of these federal programs could never afford to support their health networks on their own. A state like NY with the massive economic engine of Manhattan could figure out a way to keep farmer John's and forester Bill's health taken care of, but states like Maine or Vermont? Forget it.
madhatter
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by madhatter »

deadheadskier wrote:I didn't assign the argument. ok it seemed you were insinuating that I was advocating for a pure libertarian market based system...I didn't like the ACA and was against it, I was for running against it, it's expansion and it's eventual repeal and replacement...I'm not terribly upset that the R's didn't pass this far from perfect bill... It was shortski who claimed the feds need to back out of healthcare and leave it to the states. My point is that's virtually impossible without expectation that access would crumble in rural communities. Making a blanket statement like that doesn't account for all the factors I and you have discussed.

But, for his argument, let's kick the can down the line to the state level. Well, that's a problem because the states most on the receiving end of these federal programs could never afford to support their health networks on their own. A state like NY with the massive economic engine of Manhattan could figure out a way to keep farmer John's and forester Bill's health taken care of, but states like Maine or Vermont? Forget it.well you'd have to pay a LOT more to the worker, or supply on site medical, plenty of options not that any of em are necessarily better, worse or a wash, just options that would be exercised if need be...lotta trees in maine, always be someone willing to harvest em for a price...might have to secure the canadian border w a wall too...( joking)
I'm guessing he means the states should run the programs as they see fit w federal block grants supplied in place of what we have now...that kind of mirrors at least part of the current plan or part of a recent version...on SS knows for sure exactly what he meant...
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brownman
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by brownman »

Quite sure that Shortski is fully capable of clarifying whatever he was driving at. :roll:

Until all factions get serious about patching ACA, little will happen.
Bannon is trying to find an area where Gump may actually succeed.
Good luck with that.

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madhatter
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by madhatter »

NAILS IT

Image

the smug look on the @sses face is priceless...
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freeski
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by freeski »

Just when you think it can't get any better... :lol:
I Belong A Long Way From Here.
madhatter
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by madhatter »

blithering lips sink ships...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-2 ... nd-leaking" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Coydog
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Re: Trump Presidency

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madhatter
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:Image
well at least you are past the denial stage... baby steps...
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Coydog
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by Coydog »

"The final key to the way I promote is bravado. I play to people’s fantasies. People may not always think big themselves, but they can still get very excited by those who do. That’s why a little hyperbole never hurts. People want to believe something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular.

I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration — and a very effective form of promotion."

-- Donald Trump, The Art of the Deal

"All this was inspired by the principle – which is quite true in itself – that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes."

-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Coydog
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Re: Trump Presidency

Post by Coydog »

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