Democrat bench for 2020

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Kpdemello
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

Post by Kpdemello »

Alas, MH, I fear you are lost to the dark side.

I could go on a tear about how Trump is the most dishonest full of sh*t politician in the history of politicians but I don't think you'd even bother to consider the possibility.
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

Post by madhatter »

Kpdemello wrote:Alas, MH, I fear you are lost to the dark side.

I could go on a tear about how Trump is the most dishonest full of sh*t politician in the history of politicians but I'd have to rely completely on leftwing hearsay and anonymous sources.
which is why he won...
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

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JP Morgan Chase CEO on Trump's reelection prospects and the Democrat's bench for 2020.


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/14/jpmorga ... bench.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

Post by Kpdemello »

madhatter wrote:
Kpdemello wrote:Alas, MH, I fear you are lost to the dark side.

I could go on a tear about how Trump is the most dishonest full of sh*t politician in the history of politicians but I'd have to rely completely on leftwing hearsay and anonymous sources.
which is why he won...
I can only shake my head at the level of reality distortion that trump supporters are willing to accept... it's almost worse than Steve Jobs reality distortion field.
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

Post by madhatter »

Kpdemello wrote:
madhatter wrote:
Kpdemello wrote:Alas, MH, I fear you are lost to the dark side.

I could go on a tear about how Trump is the most dishonest full of sh*t politician in the history of politicians but I'd have to rely completely on leftwing hearsay and anonymous sources.
which is why he won...
I can only shake my head at the level of reality distortion that trump supporters are willing to accept... it's almost worse than Steve Jobs reality distortion field.
that's why he won and will win again, because of your delusional beliefs based on absolutely nothing but your feelings, which the rest of us don't give two sh!ts about...shake yer head all ya want, it's probably what distorts your perception of reality...FYI we don't actually accept your distorted view of reality, we just recognize the right of the ( barely) useful idiot class to believe whatever the hell they want...That it shoots them in the foot at every turn is just icing on the cake... :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

Post by Kpdemello »

madhatter wrote:that's why he won and will win again, because of your delusional beliefs based on absolutely nothing but your feelings, which the rest of us don't give two sh!ts about...shake yer head all ya want, it's probably what distorts your perception of reality...FYI we don't actually accept your distorted view of reality, we just recognize the right of the ( barely) useful idiot class to believe whatever the hell they want...That it shoots them in the foot at every turn is just icing on the cake... :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
The final key to the way I promote is bravado. I play to people’s fantasies. People may not always think big themselves, but they can still get very excited by those who do. That’s why a little hyperbole never hurts. People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular. I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration—and a very effective form of promotion.
That would be a quote from Trump's book, Art of the Deal. He literally says that he exaggerates the truth. That he plays to people's fantasies. Then he uses the Orwellian phrase, "truthful hyperbole"

Hyperbole is another name for lying. Calling something the biggest when it is in fact not the biggest is called lying. He lied when he claimed he had the biggest inaugural crowd in history when in fact he did not. He lied when he said he would replace Obamacare with something terrific. He continues to lie about anything and everything. This is what Trump is all about, and if you can't see it from a million miles away, I mean I don't really know how to help you.
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

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Kpdemello wrote:
The final key to the way I promote is bravado. I play to people’s fantasies. People may not always think big themselves, but they can still get very excited by those who do. That’s why a little hyperbole never hurts. People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular. I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration—and a very effective form of promotion.
That would be a quote from Trump's book, Art of the Deal. He literally says that he exaggerates the truth. That he plays to people's fantasies. Then he uses the Orwellian phrase, "truthful hyperbole"

Hyperbole is another name for lying. Calling something the biggest when it is in fact not the biggest is called lying. He lied when he claimed he had the biggest inaugural crowd in history when in fact he did not. He lied when he said he would replace Obamacare with something terrific. He continues to lie about anything and everything. This is what Trump is all about, and if you can't see it from a million miles away, I mean I don't really know how to help you.
Hyperbole is not the same as lying. That's why we have a different word for it. By definition, hyperbole is not meant to be taken literally.

I judge Trump's presidency by what he does. Not what latest gaff the press bloviates about, not what words he uses, not what he said on a bus 20 years ago.

I also judged Obama on what he did - throwing trillions at jobs that weren't shovel ready, and disappeared down rat holes. Sending guns to drug dealers - fast and furious. Accenting give-aways and regulations over balanced trade and competitive economies. Engendering corruption at DOJ and IRS. Signing the worst deal ever with Iran, and saying it wasn't a treaty to circumvent congressional approval. Ignoring the gathering storm that was North Korea. Encouraging racial division through foolishly jumping the gun on high profile discrimination cases that turned out to be non cases. Left Iraq to burn. And of course the wildly costly and poorly executed ACA.

I don't care about Obama's smoking habit, his mom jeans or his college records, although his lack of transparency there is not good.

Obama did keep the economy from crumbling further, and he wore the presidency well, except when he bowed to foreign leaders. He spoke with Harvard clarity and polish, never crudely. (At least not that we learned about) He took the shot at bin Laden.

Trump didn't lie about changing health care, he had a congress that couldn't move the ball down the field. He exclaimed about the large crowd obviously without counting every individual person. However the crowd I saw on inauguration day looked like this:

Image

and the press touted the size of the inauguration crowd like this: (Time magazine and NY Times)
trump-inauguration-crowd-1484943564224-facebookJumbo.jpg
trump-inauguration-crowd-1484943564224-facebookJumbo.jpg (179.88 KiB) Viewed 1475 times

Why don't we see any white expanse of empty space in the first photo? I can see distinct squares of people, not the small clusters in the second photo. The second photo was taken far earlier before everyone was there, and widely used to discredit Trump's popularity. And here you are spouting that Trump lied. Who am I going to believe, Time Magazine, or my own lyin eyes?

This same fact distortion has gone on repeatedly. Which doesn't make Trump a saint. As I said, judge him on what he does. Just make sure you find out what he does, not what someone with an agenda tells you he does on Facebook or CNN.



In short I will take bad hair, crude language and effective leadership to restore the economy, strong borders and balanced trade over a GQ, votes "present", socialist leaning, hesitant TPP globalist.
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

Post by Kpdemello »

Mister Moose wrote: Hyperbole is not the same as lying.
While that is technically true, sometimes hyperbole is lying. When you say that something is the biggest when it is verifiably not, that is both hyperbole and a lie.

Trump goes beyond hyperbole and into lying on a regular basis. He distorts the truth the same way a salesperson distorts the truth when trying to sell you a product. I find it offensive and dishonest.
Mister Moose wrote: I judge Trump's presidency by what he does. Not what latest gaff the press bloviates about, not what words he uses, not what he said on a bus 20 years ago.
I'm not going to excuse what he says. What a President says is an extremely important part of the job. That's why we read speeches in history class. We remember Abraham Lincoln for his Gettysburg address, JFK his speeches, FDR for his.

And we're not just talking about gaffs, here. Calling a place a shithole country is not a gaff. It is a conscious choice and a very, very stupid mistake.
Mister Moose wrote:Trump didn't lie about changing health care, he had a congress that couldn't move the ball down the field.
I think he did. He said he was going to replace Obamacare with something terrific when in fact he had no idea what to replace it with. It was blatant sh*t along the lines of his typical salesman hyperbole and I said so at the time. He clearly did not even know what the hell he was going to replace Obamacare with, because when it came time to do something, he didn't have any sort of plan and completely relied on Congress to write the damn thing. How can you say you're going to replace Obamacare with something terrific when you don't even have something thought up to replace it with? It was a lie.

But more to your point, when push came to shove, he was woefully ineffective at trying to pass anything. He had every advantage, including a Republican majority in the house and senate, and still could not get the job done. That speaks to his ineffectiveness as a President. Blame Congress all you want but history is replete with Presidents who were able to get legislation passed through even hostile congresses. It probably would have helped if he had drafted an actual plan with real ideas that he could have sold to the country. But he didn't. Probably because he has no idea what the hell he is doing.
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

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Kpdemello wrote:I'm not going to excuse what he says. What a President says is an extremely important part of the job. That's why we read speeches in history class. We remember Abraham Lincoln for his Gettysburg address, JFK his speeches, FDR for his.
Right. Notice we're not quoting what FDR said in private cabinet meetings or what JFK said to Marilyn Monroe.
Kpdemello wrote:And we're not just talking about gaffs, here. Calling a place a shithole country is not a gaff. It is a conscious choice and a very, very stupid mistake.
Please quote proof of the above, not a he-said she-said reference.
Kpdemello wrote:
Mister Moose wrote:Trump didn't lie about changing health care, he had a congress that couldn't move the ball down the field.
I think he did. He said he was going to replace Obamacare with something terrific when in fact he knew he would not be able to do that. It was blatant sh*t along the lines of his typical salesman hyperbole and I said so at the time.

But more to your point, when push came to shove, he was woefully ineffective and trying to pass anything. He had every advantage, including a Republican majority in the house and senate, and still could not get the job done. That speaks to his ineffectiveness as a President.
John McCain, Susan Collins, and Lisa Murkowski kept Trump from having a majority. This should be known as MINO, Majority In Name Only.

It is extremely difficult to roll back a government benefit, and several Senators caved to re-election pressure under a large "People will die" campaign from Democrats. (Psssst - that's hyperbole)
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

Post by Kpdemello »

Mister Moose wrote:Right. Notice we're not quoting what FDR said in private cabinet meetings or what JFK said to Marilyn Monroe.
We certainly would if we had access to it.
Kpdemello wrote:And we're not just talking about gaffs, here. Calling a place a shithole country is not a gaff. It is a conscious choice and a very, very stupid mistake.
Mister Moose wrote:Please quote proof of the above, not a he-said she-said reference.
Legitimate point but there are multiple legislators, including a republican, who are claiming he said what he said. You can do the research yourself, but lets not pretend that he didn't say something pretty damned untoward and disrespectful. That's the kind of apologetics I would expect from MH, not you.
Mister Moose wrote: John McCain, Susan Collins, and Lisa Murkowski kept Trump from having a majority. This should be known as MINO, Majority In Name Only.
Ronald Reagan managed to pass one of the biggest tax reforms in history while having an opposition party in the House. He's not the only one who was able to work with congress, even a congress composed of political opponents, to get things done. Trump is woefully ineffective in this regard, and will likely continue to be, because of his personality and approach to the Presidency (which is largely born of inexperience).

Oh, and re the people will die thing, apparently there was some factual support for the assertion that people would actually die if they lost health care, which many would with a repeal of Obamacare. The below article cites to the New England Journal of Medicine.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

Post by Mister Moose »

Kpdemello wrote:
Mister Moose wrote:
Kpdemello wrote: And we're not just talking about gaffs, here. Calling a place a shithole country is not a gaff. It is a conscious choice and a very, very stupid mistake.
Please quote proof of the above, not a he-said she-said reference.
Legitimate point but there are multiple legislators, including a republican, who are claiming he said what he said. You can do the research yourself, but lets not pretend that he didn't say something pretty damned untoward and disrespectful. That's the kind of apologetics I would expect from MH, not you.
It was in a private setting, and claims were made to damage him. Consider the motivations of the claimants. This is a long way from established fact, and is an abuse of an "off the record" setting. There is no apology here. There is no pretending. You however seem content to make judgements based on hearsay.
Kpdemello wrote:
Mister Moose wrote: John McCain, Susan Collins, and Lisa Murkowski kept Trump from having a majority. This should be known as MINO, Majority In Name Only.
Ronald Reagan managed to pass one of the biggest tax reforms in history while having an opposition party in the House. He's not the only one who was able to work with congress, even a congress composed of political opponents, to get things done. Trump is woefully ineffective in this regard, and will likely continue to be, because of his personality and approach to the Presidency (which is largely born of inexperience).
It's barely a year in. Apparently I have a longer view than you.
Kpdemello wrote:Oh, and re the people will die thing, apparently there was some factual support for the assertion that people would actually die if they lost health care, which many would with a repeal of Obamacare. The below article cites to the New England Journal of Medicine.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You can make the case people will die if ACA is reversed, and you can make the case that people will die from high deductibles, lack of doctors willing to take ACA, and inefficient government health care (see the VA). As I said, hyperbole.
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

Post by Kpdemello »

Mister Moose wrote:It was in a private setting, and claims were made to damage him. Consider the motivations of the claimants. This is a long way from established fact, and is an abuse of an "off the record" setting. There is no apology here. There is no pretending. You however seem content to make judgments based on hearsay.
It's not hearsay. It's testimony of multiple legislators, one of whom is a Republican. It also wouldn't fit the definition of hearsay in a court of law because it's a statement by a party opponent and it's not offered to prove a fact. If the question is, "what did he say?," the only way we can know for sure, absent a record, is by talking to the people in the room. Many of the people in the room say he said shithole or something similar, including a Republican. The people who dispute it are all political supporters with a motive to lie.

Again, I can't really believe this is really a debate. Do you seriously dispute that he said this? This is Trump we're talking about.

In any case, yes, I make judgments based on what I see and hear. I'm not saying this one instance makes Trump a terrible person. But this is one instance among many that make me think he is not very smart, extremely ineffective, inexperienced, and a poor leader.
Mister Moose wrote:It's barely a year in. Apparently I have a longer view than you.
We'll see is all I can say I guess.
Mister Moose wrote:You can make the case people will die if ACA is reversed, and you can make the case that people will die from high deductibles, lack of doctors willing to take ACA, and inefficient government health care (see the VA). As I said, hyperbole.
Sure, but I'm not sure it's really hyperbole when there's a scholarly article with actual research that supports the conclusion. That's not really hyperbole, is it? It's citing to data. But to the larger point, yeah, politicians use hyperbole, and politicians lie, on both sides of the aisle. That doesn't make it right. And frankly, Trump is way worse in that regard than any politician in my memory.

It seems to me that we as a country used to sh*t on politicians and call them out for lying. "Read my lips, no new taxes" remember that? Or how about "I did not have sex with that woman..." Now it seems that when a politician lies, their supporters just say, "so what, they all do it." We should hold these clowns to a higher standard.
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

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Kpdemello wrote:
Mister Moose wrote:It was in a private setting, and claims were made to damage him. Consider the motivations of the claimants. This is a long way from established fact, and is an abuse of an "off the record" setting. There is no apology here. There is no pretending. You however seem content to make judgments based on hearsay.
It's not hearsay. It's testimony of multiple legislators, one of whom is a Republican.
It's not testimony, testimony is made under oath. What you have here is political speech.
Kpdemello wrote: The people who dispute it are all political supporters with a motive to lie.
Oh, ok. The people who support it don't?
Kpdemello wrote:It seems to me that we as a country used to sh*t on politicians and call them out for lying. "Read my lips, no new taxes" remember that? Now it seems that when a politician lies, their supporters just say, "so what, they all do it." We should hold these clowns to a higher standard.
Of course. Get me proof of the shithole episode. So far we have conflicting unsworn statements by politically motivated people about a very minor use of demeaning language about less desirable places to live. But I agree that the press should do a better job, and the populace should have far more intolerance for lying.
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Kpdemello
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

Post by Kpdemello »

Mister Moose wrote:Get me proof of the shithole episode. So far we have conflicting unsworn statements by politically motivated people about a very minor use of demeaning language about less desirable places to live. But I agree that the press should do a better job, and the populace should have far more intolerance for lying.
That goes to weight, not admissibility. So I agree, it's a bit of a minor incident as far as these things go. It's not lying under oath, or breaking a big campaign promise. But it's a pretty bad look, and one among many this President has made so far.

As to whether I believe he actually said it, I'm sorry but the guy has no credibility with me considering his antics thus far. I'd be more inclined to take your approach of seeing this as a case of conflicting statements by politically motivated people if this president hadn't been caught in so many other instances of stretching the truth over minor crap. At a minimum, this incident speaks to Trump's polarizing approach that has people not just opposing him, but hating him and looking for any way to undermine him. If he weren't such a buffoon in his approach, his denial would likely have meant more. But because he's been acting like a buffoon from day one, well these are the consequences. I suspect it will only get worse for him.
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Re: Democrat bench for 2020

Post by Kpdemello »

By the way, the stories about what he said do not appear to be that conflicting:

https://www.vox.com/2018/1/16/16897016/ ... -countries" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“I did not hear that word used,” Nielsen said under oath, about “shithole.” When asked if Trump used a similar term or vulgar language to describe certain countries, she wouldn’t deny it. “The conversation was very impassioned,” she said. “The president used tough language in general, as did other congressmen in the room.”
FYI that one *was* under oath...
Anonymous Republican sources have pushed the story that Trump in fact used the phrase “shithouse countries.”
"Shithole" versus "shithouse" is not a big difference in my opinion, and we're talking about his supporters now, not those politically motivated to disparage him.

Also here's another report that Republicans are saying that he said shithole or something very similar:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/ ... ing-340617" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So again. I can't believe we're actually having this debate.
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