Obliterating History

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Atomic1
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Obliterating History

Post by Atomic1 »

The smashing of statues and monuments And trying to obliterate history in this country is no different than what ISIS did in the Middle East !
MarieM
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Re: Obliterating History

Post by MarieM »

Here's some perspective for you. You said "the smashing of statues." This addresses the orderly taking down of statues that are reminders of painful times in our nation's history. I recommend reading the whole transcript.

"And it immediately begs the questions: why there are no slave ship monuments, no prominent markers on public land to remember the lynchings or the slave blocks; nothing to remember this long chapter of our lives; the pain, the sacrifice, the shame—all of it happening on the soil of New Orleans.

So for those self-appointed defenders of history and the monuments, they are eerily silent on what amounts to this historical malfeasance, a lie by omission. There is a difference between remembrance of history and reverence of it."

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... th/527721/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Mister Moose
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Re: Obliterating History

Post by Mister Moose »

MarieM wrote:
So for those self-appointed defenders of history and the monuments, they are eerily silent on what amounts to this historical malfeasance, a lie by omission. There is a difference between remembrance of history and reverence of it."
There's a fair difference between history, history books, and monuments.

I'm pretty sure most history books cover slavery. It's not being expunged from the record, or smashed out of existence.

Monuments almost always depict something positive, heroic or uplifting. A few depict lessons so egregious that the people of the day wanted it memorialized for future generations to learn from. There are dozens of monuments to slavery. I'm not too sure there is a lie of omission in this regard when the nation as a whole is the perspective.

Need one more in your town? Have at it. Take one down? Have at that too. I'm in favor of local governments determining what's on their front lawn, not out of state vandals.

Looking back 160 years, was the Civil War necessary? There is no longer slavery in the western world. What would have happened if the war wasn't fought? When would slavery in the US have died out without a war?
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MarieM
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Re: Obliterating History

Post by MarieM »

Mister Moose wrote:
MarieM wrote:
So for those self-appointed defenders of history and the monuments, they are eerily silent on what amounts to this historical malfeasance, a lie by omission. There is a difference between remembrance of history and reverence of it."
There's a fair difference between history, history books, and monuments.

I'm pretty sure most history books cover slavery. It's not being expunged from the record, or smashed out of existence.

Monuments almost always depict something positive, heroic or uplifting. A few depict lessons so egregious that the people of the day wanted it memorialized for future generations to learn from. There are dozens of monuments to slavery. I'm not too sure there is a lie of omission in this regard when the nation as a whole is the perspective.

Need one more in your town? Have at it. Take one down? Have at that too. I'm in favor of local governments determining what's on their front lawn, not out of state vandals.

Looking back 160 years, was the Civil War necessary? There is no longer slavery in the western world. What would have happened if the war wasn't fought? When would slavery in the US have died out without a war?
Good questions...at what point would it have petered out? So I googled to see what others had to say and stumbled upon this gem. Number three of five causes of the civil war.

"3. There Was a Breakdown of Decorum and Civil Discourse

Both North and South burned with righteous anger because both passionately believed in the justice of their cause. This caused not just harsh language, but spasms of violence that racked the nation. One of the earliest instances involved Elijah P. Lovejoy, a printer who was killed in 1837 when his small abolitionist newspaper was attacked by a mob of slave sympathizers. One of the last was John Brown’s deadly failed raid on Harpers Ferry in 1859.

In between these events were numerous other violent events, and lawmakers were not immune. Perhaps the most notorious instance was Congressman Preston Brooks’ attack on Sen. Charles Sumner, who on the Senate floor delivered a speech filled with sexual innuendo that impugned the honor of a kinsman of the South Carolina Congressman. In response, Brooks attacked Sumner in his Senate office with a cane, leaving Sumner in a bleeding heap surrounded by cane shards. (It took two years for Sumner to recover.)

In normal times a violent attack on an old, unarmed man would spark outrage. Instead, as historian Shelby Foote noted, “Southern sympathizers sent Brooks walking sticks by the dozen, recommending their use on other abolitionists…” Brooks, censured by Congress, was later overwhelmingly reelected to his congressional seat. "

Wow! Sound familiar?

Also - in the days since Charlottesville, it's the first time I've heard newscasters refer to Lee as "treasonous." No one was executed for "treason" and Jefferson Davis wasn't tried for it. It's fascinating.
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Re: Obliterating History

Post by deadheadskier »

Mister Moose wrote: A few depict lessons so egregious that the people of the day wanted it memorialized for future generations to learn from.
So, the people of Charlottesville in 1924 had this in mind when the vast majority of them likely weren't even alive during the Civil War? That's when that statue went up. 59 years after the war had ended. A modern day equivalency would be Germany throwing up a statue of Hitler in 2004.

Maybe Iraq will throw up a Saddam Hussein statue in a public park named after him in 2065!!

Yes, I am sure there are many monuments that were created much closer in time to the Civil War, but the one causing strife on Saturday clearly was not.
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Mister Moose
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Re: Obliterating History

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deadheadskier wrote:
Mister Moose wrote: A few depict lessons so egregious that the people of the day wanted it memorialized for future generations to learn from.
So, the people of Charlottesville in 1924 had this in mind when the vast majority of them likely weren't even alive during the Civil War? That's when that statue went up. 59 years after the war had ended. A modern day equivalency would be Germany throwing up a statue of Hitler in 2004.

Maybe Iraq will throw up a Saddam Hussein statue in a public park named after him in 2065!!

Yes, I am sure there are many monuments that were created much closer in time to the Civil War, but the one causing strife on Saturday clearly was not.
I was not making the inference you draw at all. The people of Charlottesville can erect a monument to WD-40 if they want to. They can also take it down if they want to.... through legitimate channels. They don't need to resort to violence.

The monument in question was an unnamed soldier with the inscription "In memory of the boys who wore the grey". This is a pretty open ended inscription, about no one in particular. I'm sure a lot of widows and moms wanted to remember those they lost.

The odds of Germany erecting a monument to Hitler is about the same as you analyzing a complete thought, rather than dissecting and misconstruing parts of it.
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deadheadskier
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Re: Obliterating History

Post by deadheadskier »

Mister Moose wrote:
The odds of Germany erecting a monument to Hitler is about the same as you analyzing a complete thought, rather than dissecting and misconstruing parts of it.
lol

yep, you're never guilty of that!! :roll:

I agreed with the rest of your post. The part I quoted didn't relate well with the statue in question and is why I addressed that one point.
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Re: Obliterating History

Post by MarieM »

Interesting perspective on a Confederate monument in MD. Addresses your issue of Hitler as well.

https://medium.com/@tjmayotte/a-teachab ... 94e04e441d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Mister Moose
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Re: Obliterating History

Post by Mister Moose »

deadheadskier wrote:
Mister Moose wrote:
The odds of Germany erecting a monument to Hitler is about the same as you analyzing a complete thought, rather than dissecting and misconstruing parts of it.
lol

yep, you're never guilty of that!! :roll:

I agreed with the rest of your post. The part I quoted didn't relate well with the statue in question and is why I addressed that one point.
Mister Moose wrote: Monuments almost always depict something positive, heroic or uplifting.
Pretty sure remembering the fallen would fit into the heroic category. But that wasn't even the point. The discussion you reference was about Marie's comments on monuments to slavery and the lack thereof in certain areas, and how that affects our history. You went off on a tangent about the Charlottesville statue, and how it was depicting some kind Hitler parallel, which whether you take the statue to be heroic or a message on the mistakes of the war still makes no sense to compare it to Hitler whichever way you look at it.
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Re: Obliterating History

Post by biged »

Does this mean I wont be called a yankee next time I go down south?
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Re: Obliterating History

Post by freeski »

People on the socialist left should like slavery. Everyone is equally (except for the elites), everyone gets their fair share (determined by the elites), everyone gets a job regardless of skill level (job description provided by elites). Slavery is the ultimate social justice solution. :like
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Mister Moose
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Re: Obliterating History

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freeski wrote:People on the socialist left should like slavery. Everyone is equally (except for the elites), everyone gets their fair share (determined by the elites), everyone gets a job regardless of skill level (job description provided by elites). Slavery is the ultimate social justice solution. :like
Best freeski political post of the year. Sounds like something Will Rogers would have said. Or did he?
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SnoBrdr
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Re: Obliterating History

Post by SnoBrdr »

Now they are going after Yawkey Way and the Morse Code on the GM>
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Atomic1
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Re: Obliterating History

Post by Atomic1 »

I heard on the news the other day that people in Eastern Conn. who flew the American Flag on their property received hate mail and threats unless they stopped flying the American flag.
http://www.wfsb.com/story/36014246/home ... -hate-mail" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Obliterating History

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biged wrote:Does this mean I wont be called a yankee next time I go down south?
A yankee you will be and, if you ever decide to move there permanently, you will be a "damn yankee".
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