Iraqis outraged by video of Marine killing man in raid

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DMC
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Post by DMC »

Geoff wrote:
DMC wrote: I was eating lunch thinking about this...
What exactly is the difference between a police and military action??
In a police action, you're there to preserve order. Rules of engagement are to only fire when fired upon. In a military action, you're there to kill your opposition so you get to shoot first and ask questions later.
Aren't we there to preserve the order? When GWB announced "mission accomplished" was that not the end to the military campaign and the beginning of preserving order??
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Post by BigKahuna13 »

Didn't the unit that this Marine's attached to recently lose someone to a booby trapped corpse. Can completely understand his being nervious around wounded Iraqi who may or may not actually be wounded.

Unfortunately, as someone else said, perception is reality, and a decision that the poor guy had to make on the spot is going to be dissected by people who have all the time in the world and none of the fear and adrenalin to deal with.
What is not possible is not to choose. ~Jean-Paul Sartre


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DMC
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Post by DMC »

BigKahuna13 wrote:Didn't the unit that this Marine's attached to recently lose someone to a booby trapped corpse. Can completely understand his being nervious around wounded Iraqi who may or may not actually be wounded.

Unfortunately, as someone else said, perception is reality, and a decision that the poor guy had to make on the spot is going to be dissected by people who have all the time in the world and none of the fear and adrenalin to deal with.
What if it were the other way around and an Iraqi shot a wounded American? Would we be screaming Geneva Convention stuff???
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Post by BigKahuna13 »

DMC wrote:
BigKahuna13 wrote:Didn't the unit that this Marine's attached to recently lose someone to a booby trapped corpse. Can completely understand his being nervious around wounded Iraqi who may or may not actually be wounded.

Unfortunately, as someone else said, perception is reality, and a decision that the poor guy had to make on the spot is going to be dissected by people who have all the time in the world and none of the fear and adrenalin to deal with.
What if it were the other way around and an Iraqi shot a wounded American? Would we be screaming Geneva Convention stuff???
Probably. Not sure that that's germane though. Assuming that he wasn't armed, it's a tragedy that the guy got killed. But, I'm not going to hang some
(probably scared) kid, unless someone can pretty conclusively prove that he shot the guy just to get his rocks off.

My brother was a NYC cop and he had several collegues get royally screwed because someone decided that the live-or-die decision that they had all of a second to make turned out to be wrong.

Have had a couple of pilot friends die in plane crashes that were labelled as "pilot error" by people who had days and weeks to analyze a situation that they had seconds to react to.

Being in that position sucks.
What is not possible is not to choose. ~Jean-Paul Sartre


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Post by DMC »

BigKahuna13 wrote:Probably. Not sure that that's germane though. Assuming that he wasn't armed, it's a tragedy that the guy got killed. But, I'm not going to hang some (probably scared) kid, unless someone can pretty conclusively prove that he shot the guy just to get his rocks off.
Agreed... But still... It doesnt bode well for our guys over there..
BigKahuna13 wrote:My brother was a NYC cop and he had several collegues get royally screwed because someone decided that the live-or-die decision that they had all of a second to make turned out to be wrong.
My good friend is a NYS Parks Cop and was involved in the fatal shooting of that guy who killed the Bay Constable last summer on LI... He said his adrenaline was amped... Very wierd to hear a retelling of someone getting killed...
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Post by Pedro »

DMC wrote:
BigKahuna13 wrote:Didn't the unit that this Marine's attached to recently lose someone to a booby trapped corpse. Can completely understand his being nervious around wounded Iraqi who may or may not actually be wounded.

Unfortunately, as someone else said, perception is reality, and a decision that the poor guy had to make on the spot is going to be dissected by people who have all the time in the world and none of the fear and adrenalin to deal with.
What if it were the other way around and an Iraqi shot a wounded American? Would we be screaming Geneva Convention stuff???
Its not like we are fighting an organization that is governed by a body who signed the Geneva convention. And yes we would be screaming, I think we already have been with all of the beheadings and what not.
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Post by uberskier »

Like several people have said - it's a war.

Yes, I saw the video, but I wasn't there and I have no training.

I glad people are there. But who knows if the individual killed was booby trapped or not. It's a war - my opinion is that it's a split second decision - your life or his - I hope he made the right call. I wouldn't want to be in his position in a million years. I'm thinking about skiing in a couple days. I can't imagine what they are thinking.
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Post by CAPBOY »

DMC wrote:
shortski wrote:Put yourself in the same situation, how do you think you would react after being snipped at for several hours?
Can't answer that - I havent gone through months of training to prepare myself...

But what I saw was a wounded guy in a mosque, laying on his stomach...
Training to prepare yourself? What kind of training is that? Where talkin about guys that have actually been shot at, car bombed, etc etc etc.

A couple of them might lose it. SUPPORT YOUR TROOPS! Just don't buy a damn little yellow ribbon sticker and put it on the side of you minivan. UNDERSTAND THEM! They need your support.
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Post by CAPBOY »

DMC wrote:
BigKahuna13 wrote:Didn't the unit that this Marine's attached to recently lose someone to a booby trapped corpse. Can completely understand his being nervious around wounded Iraqi who may or may not actually be wounded.

Unfortunately, as someone else said, perception is reality, and a decision that the poor guy had to make on the spot is going to be dissected by people who have all the time in the world and none of the fear and adrenalin to deal with.
What if it were the other way around and an Iraqi shot a wounded American? Would we be screaming Geneva Convention stuff???
GENEVA CONVENTION????????????? What the hell are you talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you think that these Zarqawi guys give 2 shits about the Geneva convention? HAve you heard about any of the beheadings??? What about the dragging of boddies through streets>>>>????
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Post by CAPBOY »

DMC wrote:
BigKahuna13 wrote:Probably. Not sure that that's germane though. Assuming that he wasn't armed, it's a tragedy that the guy got killed. But, I'm not going to hang some (probably scared) kid, unless someone can pretty conclusively prove that he shot the guy just to get his rocks off.
Agreed... But still... It doesnt bode well for our guys over there..
BigKahuna13 wrote:My brother was a NYC cop and he had several collegues get royally screwed because someone decided that the live-or-die decision that they had all of a second to make turned out to be wrong.
My good friend is a NYS Parks Cop and was involved in the fatal shooting of that guy who killed the Bay Constable last summer on LI... He said his adrenaline was amped... Very wierd to hear a retelling of someone getting killed...
Dec 1994. PO Ray Cannon. Walked into a bike shop in Canarsie. Shot between the eyes. I was amazed at how good of a job they did on him. Open casket.

These guys have to deal with much worse than hoods in bike shop.

But one day, I hope you can understand why they go out and do it. And maybe one day, you can support your troops, rather than condemn them. This guy may have lost it, but you should not jump behind the anti-american soldier media.
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Post by DMC »

CAPBOY wrote:SUPPORT YOUR TROOPS! Just don't buy a damn little yellow ribbon sticker and put it on the side of you minivan. UNDERSTAND THEM! They need your support.
thats why I'm askin... :roll:

Remember - I'm the devils advocate guy that stirs the pot... Trying to make sense of the preceptions of the world about the US...
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Post by DMC »

CAPBOY wrote:But one day, I hope you can understand why they go out and do it. And maybe one day, you can support your troops, rather than condemn them. This guy may have lost it, but you should not jump behind the anti-american soldier media.
You really don't pay any attention to my posts do you...?
I'm questioning the action of one person... Out of the 150,000 troops over there... I question one friggin guy..... How is that "they"?

I was also against the prisoner abuse... But I knew it was not indicative of 99% of the people over there...

The insurgents feed on these things... We preach morality... Anytime we go against that - or are percieved to go against that - they pick up on it... It becomes a calling for people to join the insurgency...
One dies - Two take their place...
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Post by CAPBOY »

DMC wrote:
CAPBOY wrote:SUPPORT YOUR TROOPS! Just don't buy a damn little yellow ribbon sticker and put it on the side of you minivan. UNDERSTAND THEM! They need your support.
thats why I'm askin... :roll:

Remember - I'm the devils advocate guy that stirs the pot... Trying to make sense of the preceptions of the world about the US...
Why are you so worried about the perceptions of US?
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Post by CAPBOY »

DMC wrote:
CAPBOY wrote:But one day, I hope you can understand why they go out and do it. And maybe one day, you can support your troops, rather than condemn them. This guy may have lost it, but you should not jump behind the anti-american soldier media.
You really don't pay any attention to my posts do you...?
I'm questioning the action of one person... Out of the 150,000 troops over there... I question one friggin guy..... How is that "they"?

I was also against the prisoner abuse... But I knew it was not indicative of 99% of the people over there...

The insurgents feed on these things... We preach morality... Anytime we go against that - or are percieved to go against that - they pick up on it... It becomes a calling for people to join the insurgency...
One dies - Two take their place...
You are taking this all in such the wrong cpontext. You are looking at it with such short sightedness. I know you are a smart guy and I don't mean that in a condescending way. You are looking at it in the context of 2 years or maybe even a decade. I think you have to look at this in the context of a thousand years or more to grasp any of the meaning of it.

That one soldier is just a small snowflake in what is the great POW of the US armed forces.
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Post by DMC »

CAPBOY wrote:
DMC wrote:
CAPBOY wrote:SUPPORT YOUR TROOPS! Just don't buy a damn little yellow ribbon sticker and put it on the side of you minivan. UNDERSTAND THEM! They need your support.
thats why I'm askin... :roll:

Remember - I'm the devils advocate guy that stirs the pot... Trying to make sense of the preceptions of the world about the US...
Why are you so worried about the perceptions of US?
Because it would be shortsighted to not think that we don't need to band together as a world to quell all this terrorism stuff...
I actually care about the way my contry is perceived by other countries..
I really do...
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