Letter to the Red States

[yeti]

kings4,

I really don't see a difference pre and post Bush. This nation and its citizens have been universally hated for decades. They were burning American flags in the streets of Tehran when I was in grade school, and are still doing it today.

[DMC]

now as far as your question "Tell me, who else is important. Name one important country that did not support the War" - I'm speechless. i can't even respond to this.

I'm not surprised you are speechless. Aside from the ones I listed above, there is no nation with a significant military force that has not offered support to us.

Any arab countries in that list...??
Some arab countries have significant strength...

[KingsFourMan]

kings4,

I really don't see a difference pre and post Bush. This nation and its citizens have been universally hated for decades. They were burning American flags in the streets of Tehran when I was in grade school, and are still doing it today.

no doubt we have always had, and always will have enemies, and we'll have to agree to disagree. check out this article from an european newspaper, it makes the point clearer than i can, whether you agree or not, it's worth the read.


The American Century Is Over

On Nov. 2, Americans blew their only chance to redeem themselves in the eyes of the world.

The entire world is stunned by the Bush administration's abandonment of a half century of U.S. diplomacy in favor of misguided, unilateralist, "preemptive" naked aggression on totally false pretenses against Iraq. America's allies are amazed at the ignorance manifested by the Bush administration. They are resentful of Bush's "in-your-eye" attitude toward friends who warned Bush against leading America into a quagmire and giving Osama bin Laden the war he wanted.

The world was waiting hopefully for the sensible American people to rectify the ill-advised actions of a rogue neoconservative administration. Instead, Americans placed the stamp of approval on the least justifiable military action since Hitler invaded Poland.

The world's sympathy for America that followed the Sept. 11 attacks has been squandered. If the U.S. suffers terrorist attacks in the future, the world will say that America invited the attacks and got what it asked for.

Europeans and Asians will never be able to comprehend that Bush was reelected because Americans were voting against homosexual marriage and abortion.

The world is simply unable to believe that Americans, so enamored of family values, would vote to send their sons, fathers, husbands, and brothers to unprovoked war unless Americans valued empire and control over oil as more important than their family members.

As hearts harden and minds close against America, Americans will have to go it alone. The U.S. invasion of Iraq has proved to be a disaster – exactly as everyone with a mere modicum of sense said in advance.

Eight of ten U.S. divisions are tied down by a few thousand insurgents. U.S. troops do not control towns, cities, roads, or even the fortified Green Zone. The American impulse is to smash cities, thus killing women and children and destroying the homes and livelihoods of noncombatants, while the insurgents regroup elsewhere. The top American generals, who were ridiculed by the Secretary of Defense and his deluded neoconservative deputy for forthrightly stating that occupation of Iraq would require a larger army than was available, stand vindicated.

The price of the Bush administration's delusion is 10,000 dead and maimed American troops – more than three times the casualties caused by the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Bush's declared policy of "continuing to the end" will surely swell this number.

The world is amazed that Americans do not care that they have been deceived, lied to, and incompetently led and that Americans have chosen to continue along this path. Bush's reelection has ended forever respect for America.

The American century is over.

[Bubba]

kings4,

I really don't see a difference pre and post Bush. This nation and its citizens have been universally hated for decades. They were burning American flags in the streets of Tehran when I was in grade school, and are still doing it today.

no doubt we have always had, and always will have enemies, and we'll have to agree to disagree. check out this article from an european newspaper, it makes the point clearer than i can, whether you agree or not, it's worth the read.


The American Century Is Over

On Nov. 2, Americans blew their only chance to redeem themselves in the eyes of the world.

The entire world is stunned by the Bush administration's abandonment of a half century of U.S. diplomacy in favor of misguided, unilateralist, "preemptive" naked aggression on totally false pretenses against Iraq. America's allies are amazed at the ignorance manifested by the Bush administration. They are resentful of Bush's "in-your-eye" attitude toward friends who warned Bush against leading America into a quagmire and giving Osama bin Laden the war he wanted.

The world was waiting hopefully for the sensible American people to rectify the ill-advised actions of a rogue neoconservative administration. Instead, Americans placed the stamp of approval on the least justifiable military action since Hitler invaded Poland.

The world's sympathy for America that followed the Sept. 11 attacks has been squandered. If the U.S. suffers terrorist attacks in the future, the world will say that America invited the attacks and got what it asked for.

Europeans and Asians will never be able to comprehend that Bush was reelected because Americans were voting against homosexual marriage and abortion.

The world is simply unable to believe that Americans, so enamored of family values, would vote to send their sons, fathers, husbands, and brothers to unprovoked war unless Americans valued empire and control over oil as more important than their family members.

As hearts harden and minds close against America, Americans will have to go it alone. The U.S. invasion of Iraq has proved to be a disaster – exactly as everyone with a mere modicum of sense said in advance.

Eight of ten U.S. divisions are tied down by a few thousand insurgents. U.S. troops do not control towns, cities, roads, or even the fortified Green Zone. The American impulse is to smash cities, thus killing women and children and destroying the homes and livelihoods of noncombatants, while the insurgents regroup elsewhere. The top American generals, who were ridiculed by the Secretary of Defense and his deluded neoconservative deputy for forthrightly stating that occupation of Iraq would require a larger army than was available, stand vindicated.

The price of the Bush administration's delusion is 10,000 dead and maimed American troops – more than three times the casualties caused by the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Bush's declared policy of "continuing to the end" will surely swell this number.

The world is amazed that Americans do not care that they have been deceived, lied to, and incompetently led and that Americans have chosen to continue along this path. Bush's reelection has ended forever respect for America.

The American century is over.

Which European newspaper? (And they'll still call us when they need us.)

[KingsFourMan]

Which European newspaper? (And they'll still call us when they need us.)

don't know, emailed to me from a friend but will ask. (and they'll still say no to us when we need them)

[KingsFourMan]

you can't possibly beleive that the US is NOT more hated now than we ever have been in the histrory of our country.

Hello....how about during the Vietnam War era? It's OK...the world will get over it. They'll still call us when they need us.

Oh, and we're still working with all these governments on other issues even though they "hate" us. We're still working with France and Germany on Al Qaida investigations, along with most other countries in the world, even those that "hate" us.

very, very highly debatable that we were more or even equally hated during the Vietnam Era.

"It's OK the world will get over it" - WHAT?!!!

and wow, thank God the French, German and other countries that hate us are working with us, otherwise this war might be a REAL mess.

[KingsFourMan]

That’s enough, I’ve argued and debated politics too much, especially in this forum. It’s interesting and stimulating but what I’ve learned is that it truly is best not to discuss politics with people that don’t share your own political views. There is nothing to be gained. I thought it would be a great outlet but I’ve become more bitter (yes bitter) and dumbfounded than I would have been without it. i hold no hard feelings towards anyone in here, really. Enjoy your debates, keep it friendly, what will be will be.

[Bubba]

That’s enough, I’ve argued and debated politics too much, especially in this forum. It’s interesting and stimulating but what I’ve learned is that it truly is best not to discuss politics with people that don’t share your own political views. There is nothing to be gained....

That's an interesting viewpoint. It's also the apparent approach of many of the more liberal Dems in the blue states. They talk to each other and can't for the life of them figure out why anyone doesn't agree with them in all those other parts of the country. Reminds me of a story I heard after the 1972 Nixon landslide. Some famous NYC columnist said, after the election "I have no idea how Nixon was elected....I don't know anyone who voted for him."

Enjoy your life in the political cocoon.

[DMC]

That’s enough, I’ve argued and debated politics too much, especially in this forum. It’s interesting and stimulating but what I’ve learned is that it truly is best not to discuss politics with people that don’t share your own political views. There is nothing to be gained. I thought it would be a great outlet but I’ve become more bitter (yes bitter) and dumbfounded than I would have been without it. i hold no hard feelings towards anyone in here, really. Enjoy your debates, keep it friendly, what will be will be.

I do it cause it's fun... I'm wierd like that... ;)
It's tough to ganged up on but it's still fun...

I don't hold any grudges against anyone in particular... :)


Lot's of violence in "blue states" this past weekend... It's getting scarey out there...

[BigKahuna13]

That’s enough, I’ve argued and debated politics too much, especially in this forum. It’s interesting and stimulating but what I’ve learned is that it truly is best not to discuss politics with people that don’t share your own political views. There is nothing to be gained. I thought it would be a great outlet but I’ve become more bitter (yes bitter) and dumbfounded than I would have been without it. i hold no hard feelings towards anyone in here, really. Enjoy your debates, keep it friendly, what will be will be.

K4, can understand your distress, but honestly, preaching to the choir is a waste of time and not nearly as fun as arguing with people who don't agree with you.

[KingsFourMan]

That’s enough, I’ve argued and debated politics too much, especially in this forum. It’s interesting and stimulating but what I’ve learned is that it truly is best not to discuss politics with people that don’t share your own political views. There is nothing to be gained. I thought it would be a great outlet but I’ve become more bitter (yes bitter) and dumbfounded than I would have been without it. i hold no hard feelings towards anyone in here, really. Enjoy your debates, keep it friendly, what will be will be.

K4, can understand your distress, but honestly, preaching to the choir is a waste of time and not nearly as fun as arguing with people who don't agree with you.

very true.

on another note, i'm not so sure Killington should be trying to become part of NH, Killington, West Virginia, or Killington, Idaho might be more appropriate.

[Bill Clinton]

Oh yeah. I remember the days before GWB. Americans were greeted with roses, milk, honey, and snatch where ever we went!

What, you guys arent getting that?

[CAPBOY]

Oh yeah. I remember the days before GWB. Americans were greeted with roses, milk, honey, and snatch where ever we went!

What, you guys arent getting that?

Bill, there just ain't as much great tail in DC like there used to be.

[Scotty K]

now as far as your question "Tell me, who else is important. Name one important country that did not support the War" - I'm speechless. i can't even respond to this.

I'm not surprised you are speechless. Aside from the ones I listed above, there is no nation with a significant military force that has not offered support to us.

Capboy,

Russia? - Verbal support, but no troops. More interested in being repaid for earlier loans and for development opportunities.
India - Frequent contributor to peacekeeping with one of the largest standing armies in the world. Large muslim minority We asked them to provide peacekeeping troops in Iraq, but declined; too dangerous.
Pakistan - Another large standing army, muslim and frequent peacekeeping contributor. Increased aid after 9/11. Also asked to participate in Iraq post-invasion, but declined.
Egypt - One of the largest armies in middle east, second/third largest recipient of US aid, muslim, participated in GW1.
Turkey - Another muslim country with a good size military, right next door to Iraq, we've got military bases there. Wouldn't allow us to use the country as a staging point
What about Canada? really all of NATO except Britain, Spain and Italy?

You also were critical about China's involvement because it's now about "democracy building". When the administration first raised the Iraq issue in 2002, it was not about democracy. Everything was about terrorism and WMD. China objected because, like most of the world, it did not perceive an imminent threat.

Germany? It wasn't economics. Kosovo was the first time German troops left home soil since 1945. Um, the Germans, like the Japanese, have a thing about military action because of this little thing called World War II. You might have read about it; in all the history books.

"France is France"? Are you that ignorant and racist, or have you just bought into the whole current right wing hatred of the French because they didn't just jump on board ("with us or against us")? After Britain, France has the second strongest military among European countries. They have frequently sent troops into hot spots, especially in Africa, for political reasons. They fought 2 of the bloodiest conflicts in the second half of the 20th century: Algeria and Vietnam in the 1950's. Unfortunately, they had long-standing ties to Saddam, bad choice of friends. But, they did send troops for GW1.

[DMC]

Awesome... I was hopin Capboy would come up with that list...

now as far as your question "Tell me, who else is important. Name one important country that did not support the War" - I'm speechless. i can't even respond to this.

I'm not surprised you are speechless. Aside from the ones I listed above, there is no nation with a significant military force that has not offered support to us.

Capboy,

Russia? - Verbal support, but no troops. More interested in being repaid for earlier loans and for development opportunities.
India - Frequent contributor to peacekeeping with one of the largest standing armies in the world. Large muslim minority We asked them to provide peacekeeping troops in Iraq, but declined; too dangerous.
Pakistan - Another large standing army, muslim and frequent peacekeeping contributor. Increased aid after 9/11. Also asked to participate in Iraq post-invasion, but declined.
Egypt - One of the largest armies in middle east, second/third largest recipient of US aid, muslim, participated in GW1.
Turkey - Another muslim country with a good size military, right next door to Iraq, we've got military bases there. Wouldn't allow us to use the country as a staging point
What about Canada? really all of NATO except Britain, Spain and Italy?

You also were critical about China's involvement because it's now about "democracy building". When the administration first raised the Iraq issue in 2002, it was not about democracy. Everything was about terrorism and WMD. China objected because, like most of the world, it did not perceive an imminent threat.

Germany? It wasn't economics. Kosovo was the first time German troops left home soil since 1945. Um, the Germans, like the Japanese, have a thing about military action because of this little thing called World War II. You might have read about it; in all the history books.

"France is France"? Are you that ignorant and racist, or have you just bought into the whole current right wing hatred of the French because they didn't just jump on board ("with us or against us")? After Britain, France has the second strongest military among European countries. They have frequently sent troops into hot spots, especially in Africa, for political reasons. They fought 2 of the bloodiest conflicts in the second half of the 20th century: Algeria and Vietnam in the 1950's. Unfortunately, they had long-standing ties to Saddam, bad choice of friends. But, they did send troops for GW1.