Spring skiing strategies, going forward......

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Highway Star
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Spring skiing strategies, going forward......

Post by Highway Star »


I wanted to bring this up while this year's April/May skiing and conditions were still fresh in everyone's minds. It's been a great spring and we really lucked out. Being able to ski the Canyon, lift served, at the end of April was pretty awesome.

So, assuming that serious spring skiing is something that the new owners want to offer, where the mountain stays open until late May or early June, to the start of bike season...........what's your opinion of skiing on Superstar vs. the Canyon area or something on the upper peak area, serviced by downloading on the K-1?

As many of you know, Downdraft was once used as the spring skiing trail, serviced by the Killington double chair. While it was slower, a shorter run and there were bad lines, it was cheaper for Killington operate, required less snowmaking, and I assume the snow stayed in better shape due to the elevation and aspect of the trail.

Superstar is great for spring skiing because it's a reasonably long and steep run, has a fast lift, has skyelark and bittersweet next to it, and doesn't have a flat runout to get back to the lift. It's also located directly at the KBL base, for parking, tailgating, etc.

The other option that has been discussed here is to run the K-1 for uploading and downloading, with skiing off some sort of new upper mountain lift, to the K-1 upper terminal, plus possibly the Glades triple or Canyon Quad. While lift intensive (and expensive), this strategy makes use of the high elevations to provide the best and longest lasting snow............snow hangs around much longer above 3500ft than it does at the base of superstar (2550 ft).

Another strategy which I don't think has been discussed is to use some sort of combination of the Superstar lift, with a traverse over into the middle canyon, to a lift that goes up to the peak. This could even be combined with a mid south ridge lift going to the peak. That way, they could run Superstar, plus one or two fixed grip lifts, and give access to the peak without having to run the K-1. Once superstar melts out, they could go to the K-1 downloading plan, skiing on the peak, and open for mountain biking at the same time. I could elaborate on this further if there is interest, but I think it would be pretty cool.

What do you think of spring skiing at Killington????
Last edited by Highway Star on May 23rd, '07, 21:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Highway Star
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Post by Highway Star »

Bubba wrote:The lift operating goal of Killington going forward will probably be to improve their lift system so that they can run fewer lifts in the future that will still allow access to all their terrain midweek. That will take a significant redesign of the lift system, the elimination of some lifts and the addition of other lifts where needed. The net effect of this redesign would be to cut operating costs yet improve flexibility to meet additional lift requirements as demand increases on, for example, holiday weeks.

Spring skiing strategy (I think upper mountain makes sense) going forward will need to be evaluated given probable changes in the whole lift operation scenario.
Thanks Bubba, good points. I thought they already had a pretty good lift system in that respect though? How do you think it could be improved to meet those goals?
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Re: Spring skiing strategies, going forward......

Post by Humpty Dumpty »

Highway Star wrote: I could elaborate on this further if there is interest, but I think it would be pretty cool.


Obviously, due to the lack of responses, there isn't any interest, asswipe.
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Post by gpetrics »

To be quite honest I think the best option for K to have late season skiing remaines blowing the beJezuz out of SS, and going as long as possible.

When they used to be able to access upper mtn terrain off the K-double with only running one lift, that was pretty good for them. They had to have been able to keep costs way down.

As to alternatives to SS, I'm not sure the glades or dipper really hold snow that well. They get alot more sun than cascade/downdraft because they are on the other side of the canyon--think about it--Rime & East fall are more like Royal flush in terms of aspect of the hill, and everyone knows how well that holds snow ;- ).

Thus, I think if they are going to be doing any use the upper mtn to create a signifigantly better spring skiing experience than what they can already do on SS, they will need a T-bar or something from about where the old double's midstation was up to the peak. Perhaps a good engineer could even use the same towers already in place from the K1. That sounds pretty tedious to me though.

I suppose another "pie in the sky" option might be to blow snow on upper downdraft, onto cascade, and use the canyon lift to get people up higher, and then build an elevator (ala summit of whiteface) to get back to the K1. That still presents the problem of getting snow to stick all the way to the canyon lift... easier said than done.

I've always wondered if they could do anything with Pico... nothing seems obvious to me though without major capital improvements of a system that works excellently for normal season skiing as is.
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Post by SkiDork »

Mid station on the K peak double used to rule!
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Post by Nevada West »

SkiDork wrote:Mid station on the K peak double used to rule!
Downloading sucked. But was always an interesting ride
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Post by 4-mile »

gpetrics wrote:To be quite honest I think the best option for K to have late season skiing remaines blowing the beJezuz out of SS, and going as long as possible.
I'm going to have to agree with gpetrics here. If they are willing to blow the snow on it like they used to, then SS is definitely the best option. Great pitch, one fast lift, close to lodging, parking, deck, etc. besides, the latest they have ever been open was during the SS years, not the Downdraft years.

Every other option involves multiple lifts, new lifts, or other weird and expensive ideas.
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Post by skiadikt »

while i certainly miss the the mid-station on the k double for early season skiing, late season on superstar works much better than downdraft to mid-station ever worked. like gpetrics says, just blow the heck out of ss. i kinda like the whole party scene at the base. it's neat parking at the base do a few runs tailgate repeat. i think you'd lose that scene if the skiing was up in the canyon. i'd certainly trade that scene if the skiing was offered on downdraft down to the canyon quad but i just don't see that happening. that would necessitate adding another lift and having to run 3 lifts to access spring skiing and would just run into too much expense.
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Post by MrsG »

skiadikt wrote:while i certainly miss the the mid-station on the k double for early season skiing, late season on superstar works much better than downdraft to mid-station ever worked. like gpetrics says, just blow the heck out of ss. i kinda like the whole party scene at the base. it's neat parking at the base do a few runs tailgate repeat. i think you'd lose that scene if the skiing was up in the canyon. i'd certainly trade that scene if the skiing was offered on downdraft down to the canyon quad but i just don't see that happening. that would necessitate adding another lift and having to run 3 lifts to access spring skiing and would just run into too much expense.
Agree here and with gpetrics and 4 mile . . . also, allowing late season on trails like Skylark and Bitter opens up Spring skiing for a lot more people . . . Superstar is also wide enough for the "extreme" bumpers to have their own area on skier's left . . . which is fun to watch from the chair and the tailgating . . .
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Post by skiadikt »

MrsG wrote:
skiadikt wrote:while i certainly miss the the mid-station on the k double for early season skiing, late season on superstar works much better than downdraft to mid-station ever worked. like gpetrics says, just blow the heck out of ss. i kinda like the whole party scene at the base. it's neat parking at the base do a few runs tailgate repeat. i think you'd lose that scene if the skiing was up in the canyon. i'd certainly trade that scene if the skiing was offered on downdraft down to the canyon quad but i just don't see that happening. that would necessitate adding another lift and having to run 3 lifts to access spring skiing and would just run into too much expense.
Agree here and with gpetrics and 4 mile . . . also, allowing late season on trails like Skylark and Bitter opens up Spring skiing for a lot more people . . . Superstar is also wide enough for the "extreme" bumpers to have their own area on skier's left . . . which is fun to watch from the chair and the tailgating . . .
how's your golf game? what condition is the course in?
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Post by MrsG »

skiadikt wrote:
MrsG wrote:
skiadikt wrote:while i certainly miss the the mid-station on the k double for early season skiing, late season on superstar works much better than downdraft to mid-station ever worked. like gpetrics says, just blow the heck out of ss. i kinda like the whole party scene at the base. it's neat parking at the base do a few runs tailgate repeat. i think you'd lose that scene if the skiing was up in the canyon. i'd certainly trade that scene if the skiing was offered on downdraft down to the canyon quad but i just don't see that happening. that would necessitate adding another lift and having to run 3 lifts to access spring skiing and would just run into too much expense.
Agree here and with gpetrics and 4 mile . . . also, allowing late season on trails like Skylark and Bitter opens up Spring skiing for a lot more people . . . Superstar is also wide enough for the "extreme" bumpers to have their own area on skier's left . . . which is fun to watch from the chair and the tailgating . . .
how's your golf game? what condition is the course in?
We're back in the flatlands and have not picked up a club yet :( . . . trying to get some Spring cleaning done first . . . have been riding the bicycle in the interim . . . 8)

Now, not to hijack this thread . . . Spring skiing is fun!!!!!
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Post by Nevada West »

Super Star all the way. Aside from the convenience of the lots, tailgates, etc it is the most realistic way to achieve the goal. Snow needs to be made on the headwall in serious amounts. It was done before, it can be done again.
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Post by newpylong »

Superstar... no changes in lifts or trails. Simple...
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Post by Bubba »

Nevada West wrote:Super Star all the way. Aside from the convenience of the lots, tailgates, etc it is the most realistic way to achieve the goal. Snow needs to be made on the headwall in serious amounts. It was done before, it can be done again.
The trouble with blowing all the snow on SS is the cost in today's world of high cost diesel and high cost electricity. Yes, it's in part a marketing expense but it's still a damn high one.

In order to restore late season skiing on SS and make it profitable, they'll need to add a good deck on which they can gain F&B revenues. They'll also need to find ways to cut the cost of snowmaking on SS from either increasing efficiency, moving the terrain parks over to the area behind KBL so the extra snow the blow for the parks and events can serve multiple purposes as the season winds down, or both.
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Post by 4-mile »

Bubba wrote:The trouble with blowing all the snow on SS is the cost in today's world of high cost diesel and high cost electricity. Yes, it's in part a marketing expense but it's still a damn high one.

In order to restore late season skiing on SS and make it profitable, they'll need to add a good deck on which they can gain F&B revenues. They'll also need to find ways to cut the cost of snowmaking on SS from either increasing efficiency, moving the terrain parks over to the area behind KBL so the extra snow the blow for the parks and events can serve multiple purposes as the season winds down, or both.
The marketing expense goes beyond just late season skiing though. The large amounts of snow are made in the peak season times (Feb/Mar). They were usually consistently blowing good qaulity snow making SS one of the best runs on the mountain. This high quality snow brings people back during the main season as well.

I like your idea of having park features over there. It would make sense to have the aerials there as well given the amount of snow they blow for that. Right now they are blowing all that snow, at the larger expense you state, and let it sit and melt over at Bear after early april. Not very efficient planning there.

Each year, the technology improves with snowmaking to provide more and more efficient systems. The low-e guns are a good example.
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