venezuela

Anything and Everything political, express your view, but play nice
Post Reply
User avatar
Mister Moose
Level 10K poster
Posts: 11751
Joined: Jan 4th, '05, 18:23
Location: Waiting for the next one

Re: venezuela

Post by Mister Moose »

Coydog wrote: I'll let Mister Moose ... and patiently wait for him to provide the supporting chart. But while we're waiting, ...
I'm not sure you can ask a question, and then say you're waiting in the very same post...

Never the less, I'm not going Coydog fencing today. The sun is out, the lift is turning, the bumps are soft, and the friends are gathering. I'm going skiing. You'll have to wait a little longer.
Image
madhatter
Signature Poster
Posts: 18340
Joined: Apr 2nd, '08, 17:26

Re: venezuela

Post by madhatter »

Mister Moose wrote:
Coydog wrote: I'll let Mister Moose ... and patiently wait for him to provide the supporting chart. But while we're waiting, ...
I'm not sure you can ask a question, and then say you're waiting in the very same post...

Never the less, I'm not going Coydog fencing today. The sun is out, the lift is turning, the bumps are soft, and the friends are gathering. I'm going skiing. You'll have to wait a little longer.
s/b a lively HH today...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
Coydog
Guru Poster
Posts: 5948
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 12:23

Re: venezuela

Post by Coydog »

Mister Moose wrote:
Coydog wrote: I'll let Mister Moose ... and patiently wait for him to provide the supporting chart. But while we're waiting, ...
I'm not sure you can ask a question, and then say you're waiting in the very same post...
I just did!
Mister Moose wrote: Never the less, I'm not going Coydog fencing today. The sun is out, the lift is turning, the bumps are soft, and the friends are gathering. I'm going skiing. You'll have to wait a little longer.
Détente for now, see you out there.
madhatter
Signature Poster
Posts: 18340
Joined: Apr 2nd, '08, 17:26

Re: venezuela

Post by madhatter »

deadheadskier wrote:
freeski wrote:What is a conventional fact? I guess it comes down to if you think financial incentive makes things work better. The country was built on that premise and has done quite well. I don't believe most people want single payer. I don't believe in your 25%. I think you're wrong about everything. 8)
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publica ... tive-costs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MISSION

The mission of The Commonwealth Fund is to promote a high-performing health care system that achieves better access, improved quality, and greater efficiency, particularly for society's most vulnerable, including low-income people, the uninsured, minority Americans, young children, and elderly adults.
no SJW agenda there :roll: clearly BELIEVING is all that matters to DHS...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
deadheadskier
Post Office
Posts: 4159
Joined: Apr 25th, '10, 17:03

Re: venezuela

Post by deadheadskier »

madhatter wrote:
deadheadskier wrote:
freeski wrote:What is a conventional fact? I guess it comes down to if you think financial incentive makes things work better. The country was built on that premise and has done quite well. I don't believe most people want single payer. I don't believe in your 25%. I think you're wrong about everything. 8)
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publica ... tive-costs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MISSION

The mission of The Commonwealth Fund is to promote a high-performing health care system that achieves better access, improved quality, and greater efficiency, particularly for society's most vulnerable, including low-income people, the uninsured, minority Americans, young children, and elderly adults.
no SJW agenda there :roll: clearly BELIEVING is all that matters to DHS...

How many cups of stupid do you drink each morning?

Pick a source, any source you like.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Hospital+administrative+costs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hospital administrative costs are about 25% in the US. Some of the highest in the world. Drives up cost of care for all of us. I work in the industry. I have reimbursement discussions with C level management at hospitals everyday.

This isn't ideology that you can poke holes in. It's a fact.
Bubba
Site Admin
Posts: 26571
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 08:42
Location: Where the climate suits my clothes

Re: venezuela

Post by Bubba »

deadheadskier wrote:The adminstrative costs are astronomical at hospitals in terms of managing a multi vendor insurance system. It was only in recent years that coding for medical billing was standardized and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 25% of a hospital bills expenses are devoted to administrative costs, not the actual care. Standardizing price of care and payment reduces this to a fraction of the cost. Even if the government screws up and can only reduce that by 10%, you're still talking massive savings over the course of a population.

A common misconception I might add when discussing single payer healthcare and free public universities is that people in favor of it are looking for handouts. Not true. I and most people I know who want this system are well educated professionals with great company benefits. We all put ourselves through school. We all save for our kids college education. I also work in medical technology and there's a good chance single payer will hurt my own compensation. This isn't about me. Not about freebies and handouts. Both are about economic improvement nationally. Reducing costs and building a healthier and more productive workforce is what this is all about.

There are many industries where private industry is the way to go. Healthcare is not one of them. Americans are getting ripped off. The numbers don't lie
You have more faith in the ability of government to manage things than I do. I've worked with government energy regulators for over 30 years, at both the state and federal level, and I've seen too many examples of screw ups to give me any confidence that government can run something as far flung and as important as medical insurance. We've all seen the cost overruns in government run systems, the lack of bureaucratic responsiveness, and all the other issues that are in the news regularly. I see no reason to think that the government, with antiquated computer systems and a total inability to run most anything efficiently, could save on medical care over time.

The amount of fraud in Medicare and Medicaid is staggering, with the government's own estimates as high as $50 billion per year, at last from what I've read in the past. (Maybe it's better today; who knows?) Those who cite the administrative cost of Medicare at 3% and compare it to the administrative cost of private insurance at 10 - 12% don't include the cost of fraud. Granted, fraud is a problem with private insurance as well but nowhere near the level of fraud in Medicare, et. al. Part of the administrative cost of a hospital is, I'm sure, working with private insurance as the insurers try to identify fraud on the input side, not after the fact like the government. So, if the hospital administrative cost goes down, as you suggest it would, but the amount of fraud in the system goes up, all we've done is shift costs from the hospitals to the government, i.e. the American taxpayer.

If you're willing to trust the government to run something as critical as healthcare, so be it. For me to have that confidence, however, requires me to suspend disbelief.
"Abandon hope all ye who enter here"

Killington Zone
You can checkout any time you like,
but you can never leave

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function" =
F. Scott Fitzgerald

"There's nothing more frightening than ignorance in action" - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
deadheadskier
Post Office
Posts: 4159
Joined: Apr 25th, '10, 17:03

Re: venezuela

Post by deadheadskier »

Bubba,

I get the concern. But, explain to me why virtually every other developed nation in the world utilizes some form of public healthcare in more cost effective and efficient manner than our privately run system.

This article explains a lot of the reasons why single payer is so much more efficient and cost effective.

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article ... /309139943" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you could still get excellent healthcare and save your family $2k a year in the process, that's not something you would be interested in?

If you want to simply say, you don't think we have the talent to do it here in the US, then that's a perfectly fine answer. I don't have a problem with that. I do have problem with people arguing against facts like healthcare administrative costs and overall cost per capita of care when comparing systems. The data is there
XtremeJibber2001
Signature Poster
Posts: 19848
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 09:35
Location: New York

Re: venezuela

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

The Veteran's Administration is a prime example of failure, yet some still wish that for all of us.
freeski
Post Office
Posts: 4699
Joined: Feb 13th, '13, 19:55
Location: Concord, N.H.
Contact:

Re: venezuela

Post by freeski »

Obamacare came in under budget and everyone got to keep their doctor. :roll: One of my fears of single payer is a loss of freedom. Risky behavior like skiing without a helmet could be outlawed. The new argument: "We all have to pay for you if you get hurt". A whole new way for government to intrude in your life.
I Belong A Long Way From Here.
deadheadskier
Post Office
Posts: 4159
Joined: Apr 25th, '10, 17:03

Re: venezuela

Post by deadheadskier »

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:The Veteran's Administration is a prime example of failure, yet some still wish that for all of us.
Are you so sure our veterans are receiving lesser care than the civilian population?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... O-om6GVNBQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
deadheadskier
Post Office
Posts: 4159
Joined: Apr 25th, '10, 17:03

Re: venezuela

Post by deadheadskier »

freeski wrote:OOne of my fears of single payer is a loss of freedom. Risky behavior like skiing without a helmet could be outlawed.
Please find me an example of this in a single payer health system. Justify your fear to the group.
steamboat1
Post Office
Posts: 4540
Joined: Sep 12th, '11, 21:53
Location: Brooklyn, NY/Pittsford,VT

Re: venezuela

Post by steamboat1 »

It has been estimated that from 3%-10% of our medical expenses are attributable to fraud.
madhatter
Signature Poster
Posts: 18340
Joined: Apr 2nd, '08, 17:26

Re: venezuela

Post by madhatter »

deadheadskier wrote:
madhatter wrote:
deadheadskier wrote:
freeski wrote:What is a conventional fact? I guess it comes down to if you think financial incentive makes things work better. The country was built on that premise and has done quite well. I don't believe most people want single payer. I don't believe in your 25%. I think you're wrong about everything. 8)
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publica ... tive-costs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MISSION

The mission of The Commonwealth Fund is to promote a high-performing health care system that achieves better access, improved quality, and greater efficiency, particularly for society's most vulnerable, including low-income people, the uninsured, minority Americans, young children, and elderly adults.
no SJW agenda there :roll: clearly BELIEVING is all that matters to DHS...

How many cups of stupid do you drink each morning?

Pick a source, any source you like.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Hospital+administrative+costs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hospital administrative costs are about 25% in the US. Some of the highest in the world. Drives up cost of care for all of us. I work in the industry. I have reimbursement discussions with C level management at hospitals everyday.

This isn't ideology that you can poke holes in. It's a fact.
good grief talk about stupid how many times do you have to be told? NO, NO THANK YOU, NO F@CKING WAY, NOT INTERESTED, NOT NOW NOT EVER...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
XtremeJibber2001
Signature Poster
Posts: 19848
Joined: Nov 5th, '04, 09:35
Location: New York

Re: venezuela

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

deadheadskier wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:The Veteran's Administration is a prime example of failure, yet some still wish that for all of us.
Are you so sure our veterans are receiving lesser care than the civilian population?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... O-om6GVNBQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Lesser care? I'm not sure. Less timely? Yes. http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-16-328
GAO found that not all newly enrolled veterans were able to access primary care from the Department of Veterans Affairs' (VA) Veterans Health Administration (VHA), and others experienced wide variation in the amount of time they waited for care. Sixty of the 180 newly enrolled veterans in GAO's review had not been seen by providers at the time of the review; nearly half were unable to access primary care because VA medical center staff did not schedule appointments for these veterans in accordance with VHA policy. The 120 newly enrolled veterans in GAO's review who were seen by providers waited from 22 days to 71 days from their requests that VA contact them to schedule appointments to when they were seen, according to GAO's analysis. These time frames were impacted by limited appointment availability and weaknesses in medical center scheduling practices, which contributed to unnecessary delays.
Small sample size, but the number of failures within it suggest a pervasive issue at the VA - one that's not acceptable to me. Today, I can call my doctor and walk in the same day for treatment.
deadheadskier
Post Office
Posts: 4159
Joined: Apr 25th, '10, 17:03

Re: venezuela

Post by deadheadskier »

What's that you say madhatter? Oh right! It turns out it's you who is forcing an ideology on others and are unwilling to objectively look at facts and data that point to a more affordable solution with equal or better outcomes.

You haven't brought a single fact to the table. Just, "My wife and brother had good experiences with their care."

I'm glad someone brought up the VHA. As I pointed out, the quality of care compares favorably. Did you also know for that same quality the cost is vastly cheaper and the health system run more efficiently than civilian hospitals?

You're someone who clearly doesn't like to acquire knowledge and won't look it up, but why don't you go compare costs between the VA and Civilian hospitals.

Why?

Well for one, the VA isn't spending billions upon billions of dollars on advertising like civilian hospitals.

The cost of basic services is standardized. The cost of an MRI as an example is the same no matter where you go.

Billing is streamlined and simplified compared with civilian hospitals because the government is the only customer.

From a vendor perspective I can tell you the VHA pays less for equipment (at least cardiac monitoring equipment) than civilian hospitals.

But, by all means, keep drinking those extra large cups of stupid every morning and forcing YOUR IDEOLOGY on others.
Post Reply