States rights

[daytripper]

Apples and oranges, but to your point the protests in Portland were dying down until Trump called in the Feds.

In an interview Sunday with NPR, Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler blamed the federal government for making things worse in the city.

"We have an already heightened situation. It's already tense," Wheeler said. "But after nearly five weeks of demonstrations, we are starting to see that small handful of people who were engaged in criminal activity — it was dissipating. It was calming down. We believed a week ago it would be over by this weekend. But what happened instead is the feds stepped in with a very heavy-handed approach, and it blew the lid off the whole thing."

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updat ... n-portland" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Says the mayor of Portland.

[easyrider16]

Got any evidence to dispute it? I mean, he is there, and an eyewitness.

[daytripper]

Got any evidence to dispute it? I mean, he is there, and an eyewitness.

He is a politician and politicians lie to further their agenda.

[Sporte]

Doesn’t seem they were secret police or that there is actual evidence that they are snatching people off the street as some were claiming. While the headline is lack of standing, the opinion spends quite of bit of time explaining that the AG didn’t prove her case anyway.

https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/0 ... tions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Sporte]

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... ULY24.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[easyrider16]

Either the AG didn't do her homework or there just haven't been very many seizures. The AG only alleged two incidents in the brief, apparently. If it were more widespread, you'd think they could find more than two examples. It's not always easy to get people to cooperate with law enforcement, but you'd think they could get some investigators to interview a bunch of protesters and get some affidavits about how people were treated. Using a video clip that was circulated online without context seems amateurish.

If there were more substantial evidence of illegal seizures I think there would have been much more merit to this. It's either that, or just basic ineptitude. So maybe you were right after all, that this is just an empty political gesture. I guess I expected too much.

[Mister Moose]

Since the George Floyd death occurred, I've been waiting for further support to the racial motivation in his death. A white cop and black detainee does not constitute racism.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mi ... y-n1215691" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This article is from back in May, and it makes you doubt racism more than believe it. It makes you question the dozen complaints more than take serious stock of them. (For instance one complaint deals with a shooting before Chauvin was even on the scene, he was only one of the follow up responding officers.)

I'm not exonerating Chauvin, and I'm not saying some of his past history doesn't contain poor judgement or overly aggressive behavior. I am saying that the press's account so far scraped up all kinds of spaghetti on the wall that really doesn't add to the case of police brutality, and mentions zero past complaints on any racist behavior. And when I see spaghetti on the wall, I wonder if the underlying case is weak.

Sprung from this yet to be adjudicated case is a rush to judgement, and many deaths and injuries, not to mention millions in property damage. We have yet to hear from Chauvin, or hear his defense in court.

In totality of damage, which is worse, the death of Floyd, or the totality of death and destruction that has happened since in his name?

[easyrider16]

I had a different take. I saw this as an issue of police brutality, and whether or not this particular officer was racist wasn't the issue, moreso that police brutality falls disproportionately on black people. So there's two major problems - one, police brutality, of which Floyd is clearly a case. Two, racism, and in particular systemic racism, wherein these incidents of police brutality tend to fall disproportionately on black people.

One need not be an overt or obvious racist to participate in systemic racism. Studies have shown that people often have unconscious reactions to people of different ethnicity in a visceral sense, and can treat people differently because of it even if they do not intend to be racist. A lot of it has to do with how society programs us with regard to race, be it from news articles, movies, tv, etc. Another part is training, wherein you can be trained to be more or less sensitive to these issues. In short, proving whether this specific officer was a racist isn't really all that relevant.

[XtremeJibber2001]

In totality of damage, which is worse, the death of Floyd, or the totality of death and destruction that has happened since in his name?

I view this as a logical fallacy ... it sets up the argument as X is bad, but since Y is worse than X must be better.

The murder of Floyd is bad and wrong. I think we all agree on this.

The murder of Floyd is one, among many, examples of police brutality over the last several decades. I think we all agree on this.

The murder of Floyd was a racial act is debatable and I don't know that we'll ever get to the bottom of it. The optics certainly are poor and since the media generates revenue based on clicks they're certainly fanning the flames ... this is nothing new.

My issue is with some saying the protesting is worse than the killing. Certainly the protesting of the British during the Revolutionary War was worse than the killing before it ... so should we have obeyed our masters and tolerated X to avoid Y? I don't think so.

[deadheadskier]

In totality of damage, which is worse, the death of Floyd, or the totality of death and destruction that has happened since in his name?

I view this as a logical fallacy ... it sets up the argument as X is bad, but since Y is worse than X must be better.

The murder of Floyd is bad and wrong. I think we all agree on this.

The murder of Floyd is one, among many, examples of police brutality over the last several decades. I think we all agree on this.

The murder of Floyd was a racial act is debatable and I don't know that we'll ever get to the bottom of it. The optics certainly are poor and since the media generates revenue based on clicks they're certainly fanning the flames ... this is nothing new.

My issue is with some saying the protesting is worse than the killing. Certainly the protesting of the British during the Revolutionary War was worse than the killing before it ... so should we have obeyed our masters and tolerated X to avoid Y? I don't think so.

+1

Pretty obtuse for Moose to even go there.

A better discussion is what's worse? Listening to athletes taking a knee in protest and initiating police reforms or going through what we are today (great violence, property damage and loss of life) as a nation trying to bring about reform?

I don't support the violence going on around the country, but I do understand it when peaceful means of protest in the past went largely ignored and often ridiculed.

[Mister Moose]

In totality of damage, which is worse, the death of Floyd, or the totality of death and destruction that has happened since in his name?

I view this as a logical fallacy ... it sets up the argument as X is bad, but since Y is worse than X must be better.

The murder of Floyd is bad and wrong. I think we all agree on this.

The murder of Floyd is one, among many, examples of police brutality over the last several decades. I think we all agree on this.

The murder of Floyd was a racial act is debatable and I don't know that we'll ever get to the bottom of it. The optics certainly are poor and since the media generates revenue based on clicks they're certainly fanning the flames ... this is nothing new.

My issue is with some saying the protesting is worse than the killing. Certainly the protesting of the British during the Revolutionary War was worse than the killing before it ... so should we have obeyed our masters and tolerated X to avoid Y? I don't think so.

+1

Pretty obtuse for Moose to even go there.

A better discussion is what's worse? Listening to athletes taking a knee in protest and initiating police reforms or going through what we are today (great violence, property damage and loss of life) as a nation trying to bring about reform?

I don't support the violence going on around the country, but I do understand it when peaceful means of protest in the past went largely ignored and often ridiculed.

Wut? I can't even get to where I "understand" violence as means of effecting change within a nation of laws. Are you saying we need a war? Otherwise, any violence, especially that which results in killings (which it has many times now) is not acceptable, not proportional, and not productive to any cause.

Equating a war to the right to assemble is, well, an act of political wordsmithing.

[easyrider16]

In totality of damage, which is worse, the death of Floyd, or the totality of death and destruction that has happened since in his name?

Can't you blame both on Chauvin? After all, if there was no death of Floyd, there would not have been protests and destruction "in his name"

Actually that's as much a logical fallacy as your attempt to compare the above. Individuals are responsible for their own actions. Chauvin is responsible for his, and people who commit violent acts in the name of anyone are responsible for theirs. To judge the issue of police brutality or racism by the acts of violence committed by a minority of bad actors is neither logical nor useful. You can condemn police brutality, racism, and vandalism simultaneously.

And lest you accuse me of judging the issue of police brutality by the acts of a few, I would point you in the direction of statistics and research that suggests the USA has a systemic problem with how they select and train police, how police exercise the use of force, and how police excesses are investigated and punished. I would also suggest there is statistical evidence for disparate treatment of minorities by police. These are real issues that protesters are trying to highlight, and that are backed up by the data, not a handful of anecdotes.

[deadheadskier]

In totality of damage, which is worse, the death of Floyd, or the totality of death and destruction that has happened since in his name?

I view this as a logical fallacy ... it sets up the argument as X is bad, but since Y is worse than X must be better.

The murder of Floyd is bad and wrong. I think we all agree on this.

The murder of Floyd is one, among many, examples of police brutality over the last several decades. I think we all agree on this.

The murder of Floyd was a racial act is debatable and I don't know that we'll ever get to the bottom of it. The optics certainly are poor and since the media generates revenue based on clicks they're certainly fanning the flames ... this is nothing new.

My issue is with some saying the protesting is worse than the killing. Certainly the protesting of the British during the Revolutionary War was worse than the killing before it ... so should we have obeyed our masters and tolerated X to avoid Y? I don't think so.

+1

Pretty obtuse for Moose to even go there.

A better discussion is what's worse? Listening to athletes taking a knee in protest and initiating police reforms or going through what we are today (great violence, property damage and loss of life) as a nation trying to bring about reform?

I don't support the violence going on around the country, but I do understand it when peaceful means of protest in the past went largely ignored and often ridiculed.

Wut? I can't even get to where I "understand" violence as means of effecting change within a nation of laws. Are you saying we need a war? Otherwise, any violence, especially that which results in killings (which it has many times now) is not acceptable, not proportional, and not productive to any cause.

Equating a war to the right to assemble is, well, an act of political wordsmithing.

It's called human nature. When a cop doesn't get the compliance they want, some will escalate the situation with unnecessary violence. The same is going to be true of protesters. Whether it be those in Portland right now or the Bundy clan four years ago who took over federal property with arms and held it for 40 days because they didn't feel their voices were being heard.

Again, I don't support either, but I do understand how it happens.

[Bubba]

“A riot is the language of the unheard.” Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.