Recent Killington Village Survey

[simpletwist]

The recent survey included the below snippet about the new Village ... It all sounds terrible to me. Lots of questions about my preferences regarding high-end restaurants, well-known chefs, luxury stores, private owner lodges, preferred access to lifts, etc. All of it generally geared towards determining my net worth and whether I would be interested in buying or renting one of these units. RIP Killington.

https://www.livekillington.com/?&_k=100 ... 86a29105e5

Please read the following description of the Killington resort and property offerings.

Introducing the Killington Mountain Village, a vibrant, state-of-the art, brand-new mountain village as monumental as the neighboring 4,241-foot Killington Peak.

Surrounded by six mountain peaks, this new village marks the heart of the East Coast’s biggest and most popular all-seasons mountain resort community. The strikingly contemporary, walkable, mountain village will pair stunning, world-class architecture with every enhancing amenity including ski-in/ski-out residences, notable restaurants, exceptional retail, and transformative wellness amenities. Nestled at the ideal location in Vermont’s Green Mountains, the location will also offer a bike park with acclaimed mountain bike trails and an 18-hole championship golf course.

Property offerings at the new Killington Mountain Village will include:

Condominiums

A collection of 200 design-driven one-to-four-bedroom contemporary luxury condominiums, crowning the new Killington Mountain Village, exquisitely appointed, delivered turnkey, perfect as a residence for all-seasons and/or as a rental property.

Condominium prices start at $800,000.

Townhomes

A collection of new, stylishly designed, townhomes offering maintenance-free living with direct access to the great outdoors, ideally located adjacent to the new Killington Mountain Village.

Townhome prices start at $2,500,000.

Homesites

A limited collection of private homesites at a prized location on Killington Mountain offering cinematic views and ease of access to the slopes, an array of all-season amenities and access to the new Killington Mountain Village.

Homesite prices start at $1,000,000.

[newpylong1]

Jesus all the doom and gloom. Do you want to know how to avoid the village? Don't go to it. Plenty of other access points to the mountain.

[snoloco]

I've considered myself to be in favor of the village for two reasons. One, it can maybe somewhat alleviate the crippling lodging shortage, and two, that it can help drive on-mountain improvements like new lifts, new lodges, and better snowmaking.

My tone would change if those things don't materialize, or if the vast majority of people who won't be village unit owners, are not able to enjoy the mountain the way they used to.

[Bubba]

Slopeside condos and homes? I’m all for it. Commercial village that forces remote parking? Dumb idea. It may have been a good idea 50 years ago but Killington has developed into a “drive to” mountain that caters to day skiers. Inconveniencing those customers is counterproductive.

[iRock]

$800k for a one bedroom condo!!!! Condos in Park City are going for less.

[snoloco]

Killington doesn't really cater to day skiers. It's too far from most population centers. Most guests have traditionally stayed in off-mountain lodging. However, in recent years, that hasn't worked. Some motels were never renovated, became derelict, and shut down. Other properties have been repurposed for other uses. There's the Mendon Mountainview, Killington Motel, Hillside, and Killington Chalet that all became employee housing, and the Cortina Inn (formerly Holiday Inn), in Rutland, is now housing for senior citizens. The condo owners are also renting their units less. These factors have resulted in an absolutely crippling lodging shortage. It has become nearly impossible to find any lodging within like 30 miles on a weekend, unless you book months in advance. Anything that is available is ridiculously overpriced.

I think it's the biggest thing holding them back from returning to a million skier visits. How many people want to go to Killington, find that there's no lodging within even an hour's drive, and decide to go to Stratton instead? You have people making day trips of 5+ hours one way, not because they really want to, but because it's their only way to ski at Killington.

The biggest problem I have with The Village, is that they don't seem to be focused on adding a lot of units (what Killington needs), and rather selling fewer units that are super high end. At least it seems that way for Phase 1. Maybe future phases will be different. In order to attract tenants to lease the dining and retail spaces, there needs to be a lot of foot traffic in the village, and that will require relatively dense development, and units that are consistently full. I'm not sure anyone buying a 2.5 million dollar condo is going to want to rent it out, so they are going to sit empty a lot.

[Bubba]

Killington doesn't really cater to day skiers. It's too far from most population centers. Most guests have traditionally stayed in off-mountain lodging. However, in recent years, that hasn't worked. Some motels were never renovated, became derelict, and shut down. Other properties have been repurposed for other uses. There's the Mendon Mountainview, Killington Motel, Hillside, and Killington Chalet that all became employee housing, and the Cortina Inn (formerly Holiday Inn), in Rutland, is now housing for senior citizens. The condo owners are also renting their units less. These factors have resulted in an absolutely crippling lodging shortage. It has become nearly impossible to find any lodging within like 30 miles on a weekend, unless you book months in advance. Anything that is available is ridiculously overpriced.

I think it's the biggest thing holding them back from returning to a million skier visits. How many people want to go to Killington, find that there's no lodging within even an hour's drive, and decide to go to Stratton instead? You have people making day trips of 5+ hours one way, not because they really want to, but because it's their only way to ski at Killington.

The biggest problem I have with The Village, is that they don't seem to be focused on adding a lot of units (what Killington needs), and rather selling fewer units that are super high end. At least it seems that way for Phase 1. Maybe future phases will be different. In order to attract tenants to lease the dining and retail spaces, there needs to be a lot of foot traffic in the village, and that will require relatively dense development, and units that are consistently full. I'm not sure anyone buying a 2.5 million dollar condo is going to want to rent it out, so they are going to sit empty a lot.

When I say “day skiers” I’m referring to all the people who show up by car, whether they’re staying here or not. Those parking lots are full on weekends and holidays and those folks are the ones who will be inconvenienced by remote parking.

[snoloco]

How many of those people would become overnight visitors if there were decent lodging availability? Part of the reason the parking keeps filling up is because scant lodging availability is forcing people into Airbnb's that are much further away and not on shuttle routes.

There is absolutely demand for more on-mountain lodging. I think the biggest risk with the village is that it prices itself out of its own market.

[GMCrra]

I feel like the headswinds are growing for the Village.....VT is about to bump Killington tax rates up 13 to 18%. Vacation rental demand has started dropping from Hamptons, Cape Cod, NJ shore to out West. Disney visitation is down.

800k for a 1 bed condo with a 20k tax bill, in a slowing economy with high inflation and interest rates?

Pricing could be aspirational. You need top flight amenities and services guaranteed to be in place (like Stowe), what comes first the chicken or the egg?

[snoloco]

I'm certain that they can sell the units. The area has massive demand for lodging and a severe shortage. It just might not be 800k for a one bedroom condo.

[Mister Moose]

Base Camp at Bear is still only accepting reservations according to their website. Priced at 2.3M, that's just under the townhouse Village price of 2.5M. Why would you pay essentially the same price to be at Bear away from the access road core and with a shorter ski-on season?

Clearly there is price resistance at 2.3M. I think GMCrra's choice of the word "aspirational" might be understated. The Bear condo project was announced over 6 years ago. The window to be in (and sold) ahead of the Village may be closing. Is there room for two 2.5M townhouse developments at the same time?

[GMCrra]

I havent seen layouts, square footage of village townhouse units. But maybe they dont have private 2 car garages like Base camp either.
Base camp maybe gets delayed again by the road washouts and flooding....I wonder if cancellations will happen if village units arrive for order.

With 1 million lots in Rams head, you are over $3 million for a house build. With the honker property taxes to boot.

I guess you need to be in the 10 million net worth class with 3 or 4 homes to be a buyer. I'm guessing fractional ownership comes later.

[Mister Moose]

With 1 million lots in Rams head, you are over $3 million for a house build. With the honker property taxes to boot.

Don't forget in addition to the honker State education tax, there will also be the howler TIF additional tax. That's one edge Base Camp has, no TIF bill.

[Mistergiff]

I havent seen layouts, square footage of village townhouse units. But maybe they dont have private 2 car garages like Base camp either.
Base camp maybe gets delayed again by the road washouts and flooding....I wonder if cancellations will happen if village units arrive for order.

With 1 million lots in Rams head, you are over $3 million for a house build. With the honker property taxes to boot.

I guess you need to be in the 10 million net worth class with 3 or 4 homes to be a buyer. I'm guessing fractional ownership comes later.

I got curious and had to look this one up. 1.13% of US households or about 1.4 million households have a net worth of at least 10 Mil or higher. How many of those folks live in the north east? How many ski? Start subtracting folks out of that number because of geography or non participation in the sport and it shrinks rapidly. Plus there's lots of competition out there across New England. Will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

[newpylong1]

Base Camp at Bear is still only accepting reservations according to their website. Priced at 2.3M, that's just under the townhouse Village price of 2.5M. Why would you pay essentially the same price to be at Bear away from the access road core and with a shorter ski-on season?

Clearly there is price resistance at 2.3M. I think GMCrra's choice of the word "aspirational" might be understated. The Bear condo project was announced over 6 years ago. The window to be in (and sold) ahead of the Village may be closing. Is there room for two 2.5M townhouse developments at the same time?

We've been over this. Not everyone wants to leave the city to be in another city. Being in the boonies has it's appeal, these people can easily take the shuttle or drive until and after the East side opens. They'll all sell just not at that price.