haditha

[Dr. NO]

this is what happens when misguided american policy is put into play. It is our My Lai. it is our burden. f*** you idiots who think this is a war worth fighting. f*** you assholes who blame the marines who may or may not have pulled the trigger. f*** you to all you so called americans who can not see the whole picture. Our so called leaders sent children into a no win situation .

Whole picture?

What big picture am i supposed to see? Enrich me.

If these allegations are true, I blame those marines who committed these atrocities for their crimes. Nobody else.

I sincerely doubt I am capable of enriching you. With my limited intellect, I can attempt to explain my train of thought however. For me, unlike you, I am not so direct in my placement of blame solely at the marines. I can not get past the fact that it was our leaders who put these people into such a horrible situation that things like this could happen. The trigger was pulled when we started this misguided conflict. This is a byproduct of that decision. It's horrible and the people involved apparently made horrible decisions, but how we would react under the stress these marines deal with on a daily basis is something I am not qualified to answer nor do I feel like passing judgement on them. I do however blame the people that created this. That is my "big picture"

The situation the Marines were placed in was because, as you say, the leaders created it. However, your attempt to lay blame for individual or group action due to a 3rd party's error in judgement is a cop out. People are responsible for their actions. Marines are held to even a higher level of responsibility. They failed, for what ever reason. Blame and punishment is layed solely upon the Marines for their actions, should that be determined to be the case. To attempt to do otherwise is to say people are not free to make individual choice and are not responsible for their own actions, in any circumstance.

[2knees]

thats fine. i say not holding the decision makers responsible is a cop out.

[XtremeJibber2001]

thats fine. i say not holding the decision makers responsible is a cop out.

Do you ever place any blame on the terrorists or Saddam?

[St. Jerry]

thats fine. i say not holding the decision makers responsible is a cop out.

Do you ever place any blame on the terrorists or Saddam?

I place blame on all "Evil Doers."


sheeple...

[2knees]

thats fine. i say not holding the decision makers responsible is a cop out.

Do you ever place any blame on the terrorists or Saddam?

in this instance, in this thread, i dont think that is what we are talking about. it doesnt surprise me that you would ask such an asinine question though.

but if you must have an answer, yes of course i do. However, i hold our leaders and our nation to a higher standard then the barbarians who commit such cowardly acts in the name of religion.

let me ask you something, do you ever wonder where all this is ultimately leading our nation? do you think that we'll eventually just establish a stable nation and coming sailing home to live peacefully ever after and iraq will be the shining example of democracy in the middle east?

[BigKahuna13]

thats fine. i say not holding the decision makers responsible is a cop out.

Do you ever place any blame on the terrorists or Saddam?

What terrorists? Current estimates suggest the insurgency numbers something like 20,000. Do you suggest they're all members of al-Qaeda?

[XtremeJibber2001]

thats fine. i say not holding the decision makers responsible is a cop out.

Do you ever place any blame on the terrorists or Saddam?

in this instance, in this thread, i dont think that is what we are talking about. it doesnt surprise me that you would ask such an asinine question though.

but if you must have an answer, yes of course i do. However, i hold our leaders and our nation to a higher standard then the barbarians who commit such cowardly acts in the name of religion.

let me ask you something, do you ever wonder where all this is ultimately leading our nation? do you think that we'll eventually just establish a stable nation and coming sailing home to live peacefully ever after and iraq will be the shining example of democracy in the middle east?

I've never seen a post where you've stated anything blaming the terrorists.

We still don't know if this story is true, but you point out that if it is true, the leaders who sent the boys into battle should be held accountable.

Of course, you've neglected to mention (or maybe even consider) that the terrorists may have used this family as human shields. Perhaps the troops were baited into a battle by terrorists where the terrorists knew that civilians will be killed. You're so quick to blame GWB though.

Iraq is a good start.

[2knees]

i cant waste anymore time with you. Your inability to grasp the discussion at hand is mind numbing.

[XtremeJibber2001]

thats fine. i say not holding the decision makers responsible is a cop out.

Do you ever place any blame on the terrorists or Saddam?

What terrorists? Current estimates suggest the insurgency numbers something like 20,000. Do you suggest they're all members of al-Qaeda?

They're terrorists. No need to sugar coat it.

[2knees]

I need to add one thing xj. The utter frustration in trying to converse with you is your inexplicable inability to understand my point. My post was not meant to be a discussion or a condemnation of the events of haditha yet merely how this one event is a microcosm of everything that is and has gone wrong for our soldiers and our county in the god awful war. A boiling over point for myself. That the soldiers may have been acting in complete self-defense or randomly shooting a 2-year-old in the head is actually immaterial to what my point is. My point is that our leaders have created a god-awful situation and I’m utterly sick of reading about the horrific events on a daily basis. The thread has taken a turn towards the placement of blame but you and I have already gone down that path and now you attempt to do it again by arguing facts that neither of us know nor do I particularly care to discuss any further.

[XtremeJibber2001]

I need to add one thing xj. The utter frustration in trying to converse with you is your inexplicable inability to understand my point. My post was not meant to be a discussion or a condemnation of the events of haditha yet merely how this one event is a microcosm of everything that is and has gone wrong for our soldiers and our county in the god awful war. A boiling over point for myself. That the soldiers may have been acting in complete self-defense or randomly shooting a 2-year-old in the head is actually immaterial to what my point is. My point is that our leaders have created a god-awful situation and I’m utterly sick of reading about the horrific events on a daily basis. The thread has taken a turn towards the placement of blame but you and I have already gone down that path and now you attempt to do it again by arguing facts that neither of us know nor do I particularly care to discuss any further.

You look at the war as a whole, a disaster, supplemented by daily reports of the horrific events and this upsets you. You point out that our leaders are responsible for putting us in this quagmire, yet the terrorists are the ones blowing up civilians, killing our troops, and baiting troops to commit atrocities. I think your hate is misguided.

My point is that our leaders have created a god-awful situation and I’m utterly sick of reading about the horrific events on a daily basis

My point is that terrorists have created a god-awful situation and I'm utterly sick of reading about the horrific events on a daily basis.

[2knees]

Am i missing something? did we not invade iraq ourselves? did we not start this war? is there not growing concern and question as to the legitimacy of the intelligence used and the underlying motives responsible for our actions? or do you stand by the "saddam was evil and was going to mustard gas us into the stone age" line of reasoning. Or saddam killed many of his own people so we are the saviors who put an end to it. Close to 3000 dead americans now and its just as bad, if not worse, than before we started this whole mess. At least the blood wasnt partially on our hands previously. and close to 3000 american families still had their sons/fathers/daughters/mothers.

[XtremeJibber2001]

Am i missing something? did we not invade iraq ourselves? did we not start this war? is there not growing concern and question as to the legitimacy of the intelligence used and the underlying motives responsible for our actions? or do you stand by the "saddam was evil and was going to mustard gas us into the stone age" line of reasoning. Or saddam killed many of his own people so we are the saviors who put an end to it. Close to 3000 dead americans now and its just as bad, if not worse, than before we started this whole mess. At least the blood wasnt partially on our hands previously. and close to 3000 american families still had their sons/fathers/daughters/mothers.

We invaded Iraq with the help of other countries.

The war was started because Saddam broke several UN sanctions and world wide intelligence believe that he had WMD's. The house and the senate were more or less united behind the cause and the intelligence.

There is a growing concern about intelligence. It was wrong, false, made-up, who knows.

Saddam needed to be removed and now he is.

Saddam killed hundred of thousands of people for their views and/or religion or nationality. He needed to be dealt with at some point.

It's just as good or worse then before we went in? What are you using to gauge this?

Our hands weren't on the killing of Jews by Hitler in Nazi Germany. Does that mean we shouldn't have stopped him?

War is hell and people get killed. No one today knows what the sacrifice of these men did for the world.

[BigKahuna13]

thats fine. i say not holding the decision makers responsible is a cop out.

Do you ever place any blame on the terrorists or Saddam?

What terrorists? Current estimates suggest the insurgency numbers something like 20,000. Do you suggest they're all members of al-Qaeda?

They're terrorists. No need to sugar coat it.

No doubt some are. No doubt some are just assholes taking advantage of the confusion. No doubt alot of them are just people who want foreigners off their soil and will do anything to make that happen.

If someone invaded the US and you started building IEDs and taking pot shots at soldiers would you be a terrorist or just some poor slob who's trying to defend his home?

[XtremeJibber2001]

thats fine. i say not holding the decision makers responsible is a cop out.

Do you ever place any blame on the terrorists or Saddam?

What terrorists? Current estimates suggest the insurgency numbers something like 20,000. Do you suggest they're all members of al-Qaeda?

They're terrorists. No need to sugar coat it.

No doubt some are. No doubt some are just assholes taking advantage of the confusion. No doubt alot of them are just people who want foreigners off their soil and will do anything to make that happen.

If someone invaded the US and you started building IEDs and taking pot shots at soldiers would you be a terrorist or just some poor slob who's trying to defend his home?

I guess it depends who you asked. My method of attack would make me a terrorist by defenition.