the IT industry REEEEEAAAAALLLLLYYYY sucks!

[Steve]

91% customer satisfaction?

that would be dismal for a lot of industries..

Not according to the firm that did the survey. They say that 91% is "World Class" - whatever that means. The bigwigs are very happy with the results.

I'm sure it is great for your industry - the company had mugs made up for half the employees!
next up - fortune's best companies to work for.

[Dr. NO]

91% customer satisfaction?

that would be dismal for a lot of industries..

Not according to the firm that did the survey. They say that 91% is "World Class" - whatever that means. The bigwigs are very happy with the results.

I'm sure it is great for your industry - the company had mugs made up for half the employees!
next up - fortune's best companies to work for.

GE of course is in the top 5. But I find that the ones that believe this are the up and coming kids and the management. Grunts and everyday workers tend to think they are going overboard with the day to day BS they are dumping on everyone. I am sure many other companies are the same.

[XtremeJibber2001]

91% customer satisfaction?

that would be dismal for a lot of industries..

Not according to the firm that did the survey. They say that 91% is "World Class" - whatever that means. The bigwigs are very happy with the results.

I'm sure it is great for your industry - the company had mugs made up for half the employees!
next up - fortune's best companies to work for.

GE of course is in the top 5. But I find that the ones that believe this are the up and coming kids and the management. Grunts and everyday workers tend to think they are going overboard with the day to day BS they are dumping on everyone. I am sure many other companies are the same.

I agree Dr. No. A friend of mine works for Ernst and Young (a top company to work for) and he said the ends don't justify the means even remotely. He's paid much better than I, but puts in close to 80-90 hours a week

[BigKahuna13]

Actually my mug was waiting for me when I got back from lunch.

I guess in an age when most customer support people don't speak English, 91% isn't bad.

[XtremeJibber2001]

I guess in an age when most customer support people don't speak English, 91% isn't bad.

And when companies like Dell say stuff like this ...

The reality is that some of our most knowledgeable technicians come from India and other global locations.

[Dr. NO]

I guess in an age when most customer support people don't speak English, 91% isn't bad.

And when companies like Dell say stuff like this ...

The reality is that some of our most knowledgeable technicians come from India and other global locations.

Problem with that is they don't COME FROM, they ARE IN India and other "GLOBAL LOCATIONS"

Hello, may I hep you? Oh, you wish to suppah size dat? I am so sorry you cannot understand me, but I speak perfect good Queens English with my Hindu accent.

[MarieM]

This whole thread has been interesting and eye-opening.

Re: the thread and corporate environment: One of my kids is totally a team player and is doing well in a corporate environment. He loves his cube, his benefits and his employer-issued laptop. He's doing a great job and has been recruited by his employer's vendors. His brother just shakes his head and goes his own way.

Re: the thread employee/employer relations: I guess working for me ain't so bad...?!

[BigKahuna13]

I guess in an age when most customer support people don't speak English, 91% isn't bad.

And when companies like Dell say stuff like this ...

The reality is that some of our most knowledgeable technicians come from India and other global locations.

Problem with that is they don't COME FROM, they ARE IN India and other "GLOBAL LOCATIONS"

Hello, may I hep you? Oh, you wish to suppah size dat? I am so sorry you cannot understand me, but I speak perfect good Queens English with my Hindu accent.

Assuming they can communicate with their customers location location doesn't matter. Actually in many cases locating customer support centers in various timezones is a good idea - all other things being equal.

Re: the thread and corporate environment: One of my kids is totally a team player and is doing well in a corporate environment. He loves his cube, his benefits and his employer-issued laptop. He's doing a great job and has been recruited by his employer's vendors. His brother just shakes his head and goes his own way.

I've worked for a couple of places that I deeply regretted having to leave. Actually that's not true. I didn't regret leaving, I regretting the changes that killed great places to work and made my decision to leave a no-brainer. In one place we all believed we were making important contributions to an important job. In the other management fostered an environment where you literally felt like the workplace was an extension of your family. Didn't mind putting out 110% in either place. Current job is just that - a job.

[andyzee]

My belief for the longest time has been that IT is turning into modern day sweat shops. Yes, you get paid pretty good, and you don't get dirty, but conditions are crap in other ways. Ridiculesly long hours, comp time you can't use, constant fear of outsourcing, project becoming more and more stressful, work queues building to the point that you can never finish it all. I'm just amazed that the term "gone postal" hasn't changed to "gone IT" If ever there was a reason for the return of unions, it's IT.

With regards to outsourcing to India, how is someone sittling at a keyboard or a phone in India, any different than an illegal immigrant sitting in the US? Laws need to be changed accordingly.

[XtremeJibber2001]

This whole thread has been interesting and eye-opening.

Re: the thread and corporate environment: One of my kids is totally a team player and is doing well in a corporate environment. He loves his cube, his benefits and his employer-issued laptop. He's doing a great job and has been recruited by his employer's vendors. His brother just shakes his head and goes his own way.

I think myself and one/some of your sons are around the same age. I loved working at SAP, but a downside for me was the type of people I worked with ... it was very 'love or hate'. I fit into the 'hate' in my team I guess? Other teams I worked with were great though, so I can't really point to one item and address it as the problem with myself or the company.

Similar to BK's past, I now work for a company where I feel part of a family. I speak to the Director of Tech and the CIO here and there and I really put myself out there and I'm recognized. Although the company I work for now is much smaller than SAP so it's easy to get that family feel. I actually would feel guilty if I had to leave ... that's how nice my work environment is.

My belief for the longest time has been that IT is turning into modern day sweat shops. Yes, you get paid pretty good, and you don't get dirty, but conditions are crap in other ways. Ridiculesly long hours, comp time you can't use, constant fear of outsourcing, project becoming more and more stressful, work queues building to the point that you can never finish it all. I'm just amazed that the term "gone postal" hasn't changed to "gone IT" If ever there was a reason for the return of unions, it's IT.

I partially agree. It depends upon the industry, your goals, career path, etc. Primarily most of the points you're making pertain to individuals within development, software development, etc. In my role I support internal customers so I really don't fear outsourcing. Some days and weeks are killers and some weeks are really slow, it depends what problems arise. Various projects are always going on, but it's nothing big enough to require me to work over 40 hours.

On the other hand people that choose to be consultants and/or contractors often get the shorter end of the stick, but they're paid rather well (normally) so there are comprimises that have to be made.

A buddy of mine was a coder for Lockheed and quit not too long ago. He was being paid $50K a year out of college (that's average) and putting in 60+ hours a week and worked weekends. He was always pushing to meet deadlines and just couldn't cut it. I think this is what you're thinking of andy. You have to remember though that IT is an extremely large field and generalizations don't always hold true across the industry.

I don't get paid highly above average, but for what I do and the amount of work I put in, I get paid very well. It all depends on the individual and what they feel is important.

With regards to outsourcing to India, how is someone sittling at a keyboard or a phone in India, any different than an illegal immigrant sitting in the US? Laws need to be changed accordingly.

First of all, no one from mexico is coming over here as a skilled worker, much less with a degree or computer experience of any sort. Assuming an illegal could troubleshoot computers and help customers, we'd see the same problem with illegal mexican reps as we do indian reps.

[BigKahuna13]

With regards to outsourcing to India, how is someone sittling at a keyboard or a phone in India, any different than an illegal immigrant sitting in the US? Laws need to be changed accordingly.

The two aren't remotely comparable, they're polar opposites.
One is an illegal practice of questionable import and minor financial significance. The other is a legal practice with potentially large economic, societal and national security implications.

[SkiDork]

On the other hand people that choose to be consultants and/or contractors often get the shorter end of the stick, but they're paid rather well (normally) so there are comprimises that have to be made.

Therein lies my issue. I didn't choose to be a contractor. I was told thats the only way the company would hire me. It was supposedly going to be a "try before you buy" situation which apparently is what the IT industry is going towards these days.

Now, 2-1/2 years later, they're still "trying" me. I've been trying to get hired full time for over ayear now. My boss told me once that the VP types feel it's a black mark against them if they actually hire someone and they try to avoid it at all costs.

[andyzee]

With regards to outsourcing to India, how is someone sittling at a keyboard or a phone in India, any different than an illegal immigrant sitting in the US? Laws need to be changed accordingly.

The two aren't remotely comparable, they're polar opposites.
One is an illegal practice of questionable import and minor financial significance. The other is a legal practice with potentially large economic, societal and national security implications.

Which obviously needs to be addressed.

[XtremeJibber2001]

On the other hand people that choose to be consultants and/or contractors often get the shorter end of the stick, but they're paid rather well (normally) so there are comprimises that have to be made.

Therein lies my issue. I didn't choose to be a contractor. I was told thats the only way the company would hire me. It was supposedly going to be a "try before you buy" situation which apparently is what the IT industry is going towards these days.

Now, 2-1/2 years later, they're still "trying" me. I've been trying to get hired full time for over ayear now. My boss told me once that the VP types feel it's a black mark against them if they actually hire someone and they try to avoid it at all costs.

No one really choses to be a contactor for the most part, consultant yes, but not a contractor. My situation and view is obviously much different from you consider my age and lack of experience, but when SAP said they would hire me as a contractor I thought of a few things:

(keep in mind I was an intern so I had a slight advantage)
- Several contractors had worked at SAP for 4+ years and had much more experience than me and none of them were close to a full-time hire.
- The full-time hires that were on my team were hired pre-2000
- The team I worked for was the only team that had this 'empty promise' of becoming a full-time employee ... I knew several people on other teams that seamlessly went from temp -> contractor -> full-time.

After considering these points and weighing my options with interivews ... I met with my boss at SAP and told them (regrettably) that I wasn't interested in contracting, but if they were interested in a full-time hire they could call me up down the road. I actually discovered after this meeting that it's SAP's new policy to only hire contractors (at least on the tech side).

Here are my thoughts on your situation (keeping in mind I'm still a neophyte)

I'd consider if there are other teams that have contractors going to F/T employees first. If everyone is experiencing the same problem, at least at this point you know it's just not you or the team you work for.

Then I'd throw my resume around to various companies, use any contacts I had to get some interviews. If/when you get an offer that you highly consider ... meet with your boss and tell him like it is. They promise you F/T, it's been 2.5 years, you have another offer from a firm that will give you F/T status, and let your boss/VP make the call. It's win-win as far as I'm concerned.

[Steve]

No one really choses to be a contactor for the most part, consultant yes, but not a contractor.

what, exactly, is the difference between a consultant and a contractor?