"We need to eliminate white people."

Post by **Bubba** » Nov 22nd, '06, 10:37

DMC_Freeride wrote:...I can't pretend to understand the way an oppressed people feel after suffering for so long..

You're not Jewish are you?

Affirmative action was, to some extent, a necessary perversion of the concept of equal rights when it became policy in the 1960s. My problem with it is twofold:

1. Affirmative action was never meant to mean quotas and, in fact, Congressional intent against quotas was clear. Yet, that's what it quickly morphed into and the courts supported quotas until a more conservative court took hold.

2. A generation later, when the black middle class has grown and the social gap has been dramatically narrowed, the need for affirmative action is less and less necessary except in cases where overt discrimination may still exist. There still exists a chorus of people, however, mostly black but often white liberals, who say you can't do away with affirmative action until everyone is equal and bias is eliminated. Well, excuuuuse me! Equality of outcomes is not guaranteed and bias is a human failing. That argument means, therefore, that affirmative action will be with us forever.

DMC_Freeride · Post by **DMC_Freeride** » Nov 22nd, '06, 10:40

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:I agree with most of what you say, but we as a society shouldn't go around rewarding those of a different skin color just because we'd like to make-up for something that occurred many years ago that I personally had no part in.

Black Americans are not being rewarded for being oppressed as 2nd class citizens...

You may've not been a part of it... BUT there are still people that were involved in socialized racism on both sides that are alive today - some are even members of Congress..
And racism does indeed exist for now weather you aknowledge it or not.. maybe not in South Jersey but believe me - it does exist...

Post by **Bubba** » Nov 22nd, '06, 10:42

DMC_Freeride wrote:
You may've not been a part of it... BUT there are still people that were involved in socialized racism on both sides that are alive today - some are even members of Congress..
...

And even a former (liberal) member of the Supreme Court.

bklyntrayc · Post by **bklyntrayc** » Nov 22nd, '06, 10:56

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
DMC_Freeride wrote:The reality of socialized racism against black Americans is only a generation behind us.. The pain of the horrible way black Americans were treated is still fresh in many peoples minds.. I can't pretend to understand the way an oppressed people feel after suffering for so long..

But I do know that we as a county need to try to make ammends for those indescretions that still exist in places today. As we get to the end of this attempt to make things better there will be people that do not think it still needs to exist and people who try and take a militant stand to continue the fight as well as people that take advantage of it...
I agree with some of what you say, but we as a society shouldn't go around rewarding those of a different skin color just because we'd like to make-up for something that occurred many years ago that many of my fellow classmates had no part in.

Rewards of any kind, whether it be financial, career related, scholarly, etc. should not be rewarded on race/

Although you personally may not have committed any wrongdoing, you are definitely reaping the benefits of many years of oppression. I'm sure you won't see it that way, but it's very true.

You sound like some of my old co-workers who were sure I got to my position in the company by some means of "unfair" affirmative action. I am a woman & black so I was told I was a "double minority".

They weren't there when I graduated in the top 10% of my high school class, with the top SAT score of the school up to that point. That I earned a full academic scholarship that had nothing to do with my race or gender, or that I maintained a 4.0 in college. 10 years out of school I had earned that position due to over 20 years of study, hard work and paying my dues. Family members told me, 'You'll have to be twice as good to get half as much' and that's true.

Let me tell you, life is a daily struggle against racist attitudes. You wouldn't believe the stories - from apartments I've lost, stores I've been followed in, down to women who are afraid I'll steal their purse. For the purposes of this discussion we'll leave out the many times people have felt free to let the N word fly "just because".

You live without that stress. Doors are completely open to you and you don't have to be exceptionally good to walk through.

XtremeJibber2001 · Post by **XtremeJibber2001** » Nov 22nd, '06, 10:58

DMC_Freeride wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:I agree with most of what you say, but we as a society shouldn't go around rewarding those of a different skin color just because we'd like to make-up for something that occurred many years ago that I personally had no part in.
Black Americans are not being rewarded for being oppressed as 2nd class citizens...

You may've not been a part of it... BUT there are still people that were involved in socialized racism on both sides that are alive today - some are even members of Congress..
And racism does indeed exist for now weather you aknowledge it or not.. maybe not in South Jersey but believe me - it does exist...

So because some people are racist (that's not going to change for some) we should give precedence to those of color purely because they're of color (keep in mind I'm only referring to academia)? That makes no sense.

My argument is that minorities should NOT be rewarded scholarships just because they're a smart minority. They should be weighted equally with those that are Caucasian, why should it be any other way?

What is your reasoning behind the acceptance of precedence for those of color just because they're not white?

Bubba ... when ever you write it ... it sounds much better. I'm going to PM my posts to you prior to posting from now on!

DMC_Freeride · Post by **DMC_Freeride** » Nov 22nd, '06, 11:07

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:So because some people are racist (that's not going to change for some) we should give precedence to those of color purely because they're of color (keep in mind I'm only referring to academia)? That makes no sense.

It doesn't have to make sense to you... Your a rich white kid...
Read the above post...

XtremeJibber2001 · Post by **XtremeJibber2001** » Nov 22nd, '06, 11:11

DMC_Freeride · Post by **DMC_Freeride** » Nov 22nd, '06, 11:14

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:So because some people are racist (that's not going to change for some) we should give precedence to those of color purely because they're of color (keep in mind I'm only referring to academia)? That makes no sense.

It doesn't have to make sense to you... Your a rich white kid... :)
As a kid who grew up in the 60's i can assure you that racism isn't that far in our past..

Read the above post...

XtremeJibber2001 · Post by **XtremeJibber2001** » Nov 22nd, '06, 11:17

DMC_Freeride wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:So because some people are racist (that's not going to change for some) we should give precedence to those of color purely because they're of color (keep in mind I'm only referring to academia)? That makes no sense.
It doesn't have to make sense to you... Your a rich white kid... :)
As a kid who grew up in the 60's i can assure you that racism isn't that far in our past..

Read the above post...

So Bobby-Jo from NYC is racist and John Doe from ND is racist ... that sucks, but you know what, throwing money at the problem ain't going to help.

DMC_Freeride · Post by **DMC_Freeride** » Nov 22nd, '06, 11:20

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
DMC_Freeride wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:So because some people are racist (that's not going to change for some) we should give precedence to those of color purely because they're of color (keep in mind I'm only referring to academia)? That makes no sense.
It doesn't have to make sense to you... Your a rich white kid... :)
As a kid who grew up in the 60's i can assure you that racism isn't that far in our past..

Read the above post...
So Bobby-Jo from NYC is racist and John Doe from ND is racist ... that sucks, but you know what, throwing money at the problem ain't going to help.

Whatever... It's not really your problem.. You've done OK..
But understand that this issue is still fresh in the minds of people that faced it headon.. And suffered from it...

BigKahuna13 · Post by **BigKahuna13** » Nov 22nd, '06, 11:22

XJ -

The point you're missing is that whether or not you've directly discriminated against someone is irrelevant. You've benefited from that discrimination - as have I, as have most white middle class people.

Giving preference to minorities is merely a tool to level an otherwise slanted playing field until such time as the typical minority child has the same opportunity to excel as the typical white child.

DMC_Freeride · Post by **DMC_Freeride** » Nov 22nd, '06, 11:24

this country was built with slavery and hemp...

XtremeJibber2001 · Post by **XtremeJibber2001** » Nov 22nd, '06, 11:31

bklyntrayc wrote:
XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
DMC_Freeride wrote:The reality of socialized racism against black Americans is only a generation behind us.. The pain of the horrible way black Americans were treated is still fresh in many peoples minds.. I can't pretend to understand the way an oppressed people feel after suffering for so long..

But I do know that we as a county need to try to make ammends for those indescretions that still exist in places today. As we get to the end of this attempt to make things better there will be people that do not think it still needs to exist and people who try and take a militant stand to continue the fight as well as people that take advantage of it...
I agree with some of what you say, but we as a society shouldn't go around rewarding those of a different skin color just because we'd like to make-up for something that occurred many years ago that many of my fellow classmates had no part in.

Rewards of any kind, whether it be financial, career related, scholarly, etc. should not be rewarded on race/
Although you personally may not have committed any wrongdoing, you are definitely reaping the benefits of many years of oppression. I'm sure you won't see it that way, but it's very true.

You're right, I certainly am. Should I be paying for my fathers, fathers mistakes? (not that he was racist because he certainly was not, but you know what I am attempting to say) Does the money coming out of my pocket help aid the problem? If you ask me, I say it adds fuel to the fire because it escalates hate towards minorities.

You sound like some of my old co-workers who were sure I got to my position in the company by some means of "unfair" affirmative action. I am a woman & black so I was told I was a "double minority".

I am nothing like your co-workers and I'd appreciate if you don't equate me with people that are utterly shallow. I respect, appreciate, and love to see people that do well and get what they deserve. (I'd like to also add that I don't feel it's any more special for a Mexican to achieve success anymore then a white person) You got what you received because you're smart, not because of your skin color.

In my personal experience in the academic world (could be much different elsewhere), you would be a diamond in the rough. The people I worked in groups with weren't over-achievers like you, they were just like me ... the 'slightly' above average student. The only difference between us was our skin color and the loans in our name .. interesting correlation.

They weren't there when I graduated in the top 10% of my high school class, with the top SAT score of the school up to that point. That I earned a full academic scholarship that had nothing to do with my race or gender, or that I maintained a 4.0 in college. 10 years out of school I had earned that position due to over 20 years of study, hard work and paying my dues. Family members told me, 'You'll have to be twice as good to get half as much' and that's true.

Give them the finger and tell them to f_uck off. People are going to talk sh_it no matter your race, religion, or grades. People talked trash to you because you were smart and black. People talked trash to me because I was white and dumb. We both worked hard and got we deserved and it had no difference what color we were.

Let me tell you, life is a daily struggle against racist attitudes. You wouldn't believe the stories - from apartments I've lost, stores I've been followed in, down to women who are afraid I'll steal their purse. For the purposes of this discussion we'll leave out the many times people have felt free to let the N word fly "just because".

I'm aware it is and it's a shame that racisms exists in our society. Throwing money at the problem isn't going to fix it.

You live without that stress. Doors are completely open to you and you don't have to be exceptionally good to walk through.

I've been called cracker quite a few times, especially in Philly ... only difference is no one equates that to the N word.

I'm not familiar with any doors that are closed for Americans. People are going to be racist regardless of laws ... no laws, legislation, or amount of money will change that.

DMC_Freeride · Post by **DMC_Freeride** » Nov 22nd, '06, 11:32

Bubba wrote:
DMC_Freeride wrote:...I can't pretend to understand the way an oppressed people feel after suffering for so long..
You're not Jewish are you?

Oppression ended for my people(Irish) a long time ago... But some of my ancestors(English) were endentured servants originally... And some came from places where they had to run from(Portugal)... But some were just trapping fur in Canada(French)...

Interestingly - We have family artifacts from both sides of the Civil War... A GAR medal and a southern sword.. Our southern ancestors were slave owners :(

Post by **SkiDork** » Nov 22nd, '06, 11:34

DMC_Freeride wrote:
Bubba wrote:
DMC_Freeride wrote:...I can't pretend to understand the way an oppressed people feel after suffering for so long..
You're not Jewish are you?

Oppression ended for my people(Irish) a long time ago... But some of my ancestors(English) were endentured servants originally... And some came from places where they had to run from(Portugal)... But some were just trapping fur in Canada(French)...

Interestingly - We have family artifacts from both sides of the Civil War... A GAR medal and a southern sword.. Our southern ancestors were slave owners :(

"Gangs Of New York" certainly illustrated prejudice against the Irish... A real eye-opener.