killington cancelling lifetime passes

[Mister Moose]

I'm angry about it, and I don't even own one of the blessed things. A fast one is still a fast one.

What's next?

Oh, your 'seasons pass' refers to the winter season, spring is extra.

Oh, your 'seasons pass' doesn't refer to our new premium lifts.

Oh, your 'seasons pass' doesn't cover all hours, we have designated 8-9 am as "platinum time", which you can access for an extra $$.....

[Vertical Bill]

I got my passes from the vault. This is the wording:

========================================

Killington Ltd.

SHERBURNE VERMONT

PASS

This certifies that SkiDork is the owner of record of Pass Number XXXX, entitling the holder to the free use of all ski lifts operated by Killington Ltd. at Killington Ski Are so long as the corporation shall operate in that area under an agreement with the State Of Vermont.

The Ownership of the pass may be transferred not more than once during the life of the pass. The transfer must be made upon the books of the corporation in person or by attorney, by surrender of this certificate properly endorsed.

Signed by Allen Wilson

QUESTION!!!!!!

The above is the WORDING on the bond issued to SkiDork in 2003!!! That is not the original wording on the bonds issued in the 60's, it is different than what is quoted in the passholder letter:

The Pass was a benefit you or your predecessor in interest, received for being an initial investor in Sherburne Corporation during the resorts infancy. The specific language in your stock or bond certificate granted you "a pass entitling the holder to use free all ski lifts operated by the corporation in Killington Basin so long as the [Sherburne] corporation shall operate in that area under the agreement with the State of Vermont." When the resort changes ownership as part of this sale, Killington, LTD will no longer own or operate the lifts at the resort. Thus, at the time of the transfer of ownership, your Pass will expire and the new Owners have no obligation to honor your pass.

See where I'm going with this??? Where did [Sherburne] come from in the wording!?!?!?!?!?!? SOMEBODY STUCK IT IN THERE WHEN THEY SENT OUT THE LETTER!!!!! The wording was also changed when the bonds were transfered, such as to SkiDork.

If someone uncovers an ORIGINAL 1960's vintage bond.....I highly suspect that it will read as the following:

"a pass entitling the holder to use free all ski lifts operated by the corporation in Killington Basin so long as the corporation shall operate in that area under the agreement with the State of Vermont."

Got that???? That's the corporation in Killington Basin, operating lifts under agreement with the state of VT.

Not Killington LTD, Sherburne Corp, and not ASC. ANY CORPORATION!!!!!! OPERATING SKI LIFTS UNDER AGREEMENT WITH THE STATE, IN KILLINGTON BASIN!!!!!!

We need an original bond, ASAP!!!!!!

I have been wondering where these third type of passes, ones that are being honored, came from. Could it be that the three dozzen passes they are honering are passes that have never been transfered and thus have the original wording?

[Vertical Bill]

I think we should start a list of pass holders so that we can comunicate directly about various actions we might be taking or want to take. Like showing up at the town council meeting to voice our concern to the town about the buisness practices of the new owner of Killigton. Anyway I will volunteer to be the clearing house of the list. So if you email me your real email address I will email you updated copies of the emails of the pass holders I have recieved so we can email each other and know who each other are. Here is what you should include in the email:

Your Name
How many Passes of which type you have.

If you do not want to divulge the number and type of passes you do not have to.

Email ro Bill@skitrak.com

[Bubba]

I think we should start a list of pass holders so that we can comunicate directly about various actions we might be taking or want to take. Like showing up at the town council meeting to voice our concern to the town about the buisness practices of the new owner of Killigton. Anyway I will volunteer to be the clearing house of the list. So if you email me your real email address I will email you updated copies of the emails of the pass holders I have recieved so we can email each other and know who each other are. Here is what you should include in the email:

Your Name
How many Passes of which type you have.

If you do not want to divulge the number and type of passes you do not have to.

Email ro Bill@skitrak.com

Probably just as easy to do it here - Dork started to keep tabs on it but hasn't kept up. Maybe he can just modify the chart on the first page.

[robgoose]

Highway Star,

"the corporation" does not mean "any corporation"

"the corporation" is probably a defined term in the bond issue... so the following is academic, but "the corporation" refers to a specific entity; you might have had an argument if it had said "a corporation"...

In any case,
1) liabilities do not travel with asset sales unless specifically included ... see e.g. the impending "sale" of Chrysler.
(although asset sales designed to defraud creditors can be reversed -- this does not seem to be the case here)

2) As far as pursuing an action against ASC, I'd want to know (after all the layers of debt with which the Sherbourne Corp. and its corporate successors burdened themselves, where do the liftetime pass bond-holders stand in terms of priority (I doubt very high). Still if ASC has only defaulted vis-a-vis those bondholders, they may have a claim.

3) I'm not sure the escrow is going to be available to the lifetime pass holders... that money exists to adjust the post-closing value of Killington as between PWDR and ASC.

4) You're right though to say that the only real way to determine if a cause of action exists for the bondholders is to look at the original docs... see who owed what, and trace those obligations through Killington's various corporate forms.

Cheers

[Bling Skier]

Stick a Fork in it...This Subject is Done...Time to move on

[Dr. NO]

Stick a Fork in it...This Subject is Done...Time to move on

aint over until it is OVER, or until the FAT Lady Sings. which ever comes first.

[Highway Star]

Highway Star,

"the corporation" does not mean "any corporation"

"the corporation" is probably a defined term in the bond issue... so the following is academic, but "the corporation" refers to a specific entity; you might have had an argument if it had said "a corporation"...

Right, but I'm debating the meaning of the phrase "to use free all ski lifts operated by the corporation in Killington Basin"...........and that's certainly not just "any corporation". It's any corporation that aquires Killington through any means....how else are they going to become the corporation in Killington Basin?

Why else? Because of the lease/agreement with the State of Vermont to operate lifts on leased land. As has been previously discussed, Killington is mainly on 5000 acres of state land. Any company owning the rights to that lease and is operating under it, no matter how they came by it, becomes "the corporation in Killington Basin", as far as these bonds are concerned......IMHO.

I think that was the original intent of bond wording.....makes the most sense, really......if you were sitting around in 1960 trying to figure out how to write these things up so they would survive indefinitely, you would certainly not tie them your company, or your company name, or it's transient assets......you would tie them to the two things which would not change:

1. The location of the ski area, Killington Basin.
2. The 100 year lease on the land/lift ops with the state.

Preston Smith.....smart guy......takes care of his investors too.

[Highway Star]

Stick a Fork in it...This Subject is Done...Time to move on

IF you hadn't noticed, I bring "beating a dead horse" to a whole new level.

And this horse is still very much alive......

[Vertical Bill]

I think we should start a list of pass holders so that we can comunicate directly about various actions we might be taking or want to take. Like showing up at the town council meeting to voice our concern to the town about the buisness practices of the new owner of Killigton. Anyway I will volunteer to be the clearing house of the list. So if you email me your real email address I will email you updated copies of the emails of the pass holders I have recieved so we can email each other and know who each other are. Here is what you should include in the email:

Your Name
How many Passes of which type you have.

If you do not want to divulge the number and type of passes you do not have to.

Email ro Bill@skitrak.com

Probably just as easy to do it here - Dork started to keep tabs on it but hasn't kept up. Maybe he can just modify the chart on the first page.

Is there a way to build a list (Group)of those names so that you can put the name of the list in a email so you do not have to type all the namse in each time?

[Vertical Bill]

Highway Star,

"the corporation" does not mean "any corporation"

"the corporation" is probably a defined term in the bond issue... so the following is academic, but "the corporation" refers to a specific entity; you might have had an argument if it had said "a corporation"...

In any case,
1) liabilities do not travel with asset sales unless specifically included ... see e.g. the impending "sale" of Chrysler.
(although asset sales designed to defraud creditors can be reversed -- this does not seem to be the case here)

2) As far as pursuing an action against ASC, I'd want to know (after all the layers of debt with which the Sherbourne Corp. and its corporate successors burdened themselves, where do the liftetime pass bond-holders stand in terms of priority (I doubt very high). Still if ASC has only defaulted vis-a-vis those bondholders, they may have a claim.

3) I'm not sure the escrow is going to be available to the lifetime pass holders... that money exists to adjust the post-closing value of Killington as between PWDR and ASC.

4) You're right though to say that the only real way to determine if a cause of action exists for the bondholders is to look at the original docs... see who owed what, and trace those obligations through Killington's various corporate forms.

Cheers

As for the escrow, if the AG and whatever corts that follow through that process, determine that the new corporation needs to honor the passes then the 3 million could go to SP Land and Powdr to compensate them for the hidden liability.

[Vertical Bill]

Stick a Fork in it...This Subject is Done...Time to move on

All you have to do to move on is to ignore this thread

[newpylong]

Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor? NO

[skip]

"the corporation"?

Talk about a pulled quote. Highwaystar, I appreciate your enthusiasm on all things Killington, and I'm certain that you mean well.

But one of these days, you're going to break your neck jumping to a conclusion.

Stop. Just... stop.

[Highway Star]

"the corporation"?

Talk about a pulled quote. Highwaystar, I appreciate your enthusiasm on all things Killington, and I'm certain that you mean well.

But one of these days, you're going to break your neck jumping to a conclusion.

Stop. Just... stop.

You know me well, skip.