Some Good Information At Town Meeting

roundabout · Post by **roundabout** » Jun 13th, '07, 08:27

I apologize for this being in two parts as the newspaper is a large scan, but this is the november 7th, 1996 issue of the Mountain Times showing the lift towers for the Needles Eye Express being installed, so it was done in 1996:

newpylong · Post by **newpylong** » Jun 13th, '07, 10:16

That's a sweet picture... When Upper Header had no obstacles. Sweet job putting a lift in short of the summit.

Regardless, SKI transferred to ASC in Summer '96 after they agreed to sell Waterville and Cranmore. So the lifts were still installed by ASC. Perhaps the '97 date we remember is the completion date.

SPORE · Post by **SPORE** » Jun 13th, '07, 10:44

Steve wrote:Killington is not the only mountain in Vermont with great terrain. It's not the southernmost mountain with great terrain. And it doesn't have the longest season anymore either.

Last I checked, Killington still has the longest season in VT.

skiadikt · Post by **skiadikt** » Jun 13th, '07, 11:43

SPORE wrote:
Steve wrote:Killington is not the only mountain in Vermont with great terrain. It's not the southernmost mountain with great terrain. And it doesn't have the longest season anymore either.
Last I checked, Killington still has the longest season in VT.

then you oughta check again ... da bush closed may 6, the same day as k and opened earler. granted da bush was closed mid-week that last week but in any case, the days of k claiming the longest season - first to open & last to close are over. the longest season thingy is no longer on the table.

Post by **Bubba** » Jun 13th, '07, 11:47

skiadikt wrote:...the longest season thingy is no longer on the table.

And with that, there goes Killington's brand....ASC shot that to hell in 5 years of total mismanagement. Unfortunately, it doesn't yet look like new ownership recognizes that immense failure.

Mister Moose · Post by **Mister Moose** » Jun 13th, '07, 11:55

Bubba wrote:
skiadikt wrote:...the longest season thingy is no longer on the table.
And with that, there goes Killington's brand....ASC shot that to hell in 5 years of total mismanagement. Unfortunately, it doesn't yet look like new ownership recognizes that immense failure.

Can't believe they are going to hand it to Woodbury that easily. Wonder how much a season pass is there next season.

JerseyGuy · Post by **JerseyGuy** » Jun 13th, '07, 12:37

Bubba wrote:
Selbo added that it’s the power of the real estate that allows them to tear down buildings and create a more aesthetic environment. It’s the energy that the real estate brings that allows them of relocate things to provide a better product.

Bill Langlais said, regarding their statement of expecting the number of visitors to drop, but one of their priorities is building the Village and the Village brings in a lot more beds, so isn’t that a problem? Shouldn’t they postpone the building of the Village? Selbo said, given the Act 250 process they have a lot of work to do so the village is years out. Langlais asked if we can see a commitment from them to not build until they see skier visits go back up and Selbo replied no, that’s why he is here, that’s why his company is here. They believe the Village is important to attract people.
Well, this is what Allen Wilson was saying the past few years - that the real estate development will re-energize the resort. Total unadulterated nonsense.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Real Estate will Solve Everything!

Christ, here we go again...

laseranimal · Post by **laseranimal** » Jun 13th, '07, 12:43

Real estate WILL solve everything!

it will make SP land and Powdr very wealthy

which is the whole point of this exercise

Geoff · Post by **Geoff** » Jun 13th, '07, 13:08

roundabout wrote:I apologize for this being in two parts as the newspaper is a large scan, but this is the november 7th, 1996 issue of the Mountain Times showing the lift towers for the Needles Eye Express being installed, so it was done in 1996:

A nit:

Those two shots are of the Rams Head high speed quad install.

The last thing of any significance ASC did to the resort was the Woodward Reservoir project. That happened the summer of 2000. ASC hit the financial wall around that time.

roundabout · Post by **roundabout** » Jun 13th, '07, 13:14

Geoff wrote:
roundabout wrote:I apologize for this being in two parts as the newspaper is a large scan, but this is the november 7th, 1996 issue of the Mountain Times showing the lift towers for the Needles Eye Express being installed, so it was done in 1996:

A nit:

Those two shots are of the Rams Head high speed quad install.

The last thing of any significance ASC did to the resort was the Woodward Reservoir project. That happened the summer of 2000. ASC hit the financial wall around that time.

Yes, I realize that now. Still they did intall the lifts in 1996 and I though it would be cool to share the scan. I have alot of older stuff in my collection.

Geoff · Post by **Geoff** » Jun 13th, '07, 13:16

laseranimal wrote:Real estate WILL solve everything!

it will make SP land and Powdr very wealthy

which is the whole point of this exercise

That was what ASC thought. The problem is that the anti-development laws in Vermont make it very difficult to make a profit developing real estate. Act 250 permitting is an expensive and drawn out process. The anti-subdivision laws confiscate your profits until you've held the land for five years. The town can kill pretty much anything in the various town boards.

I'm pretty sure this is why Centex pulled out 8 months ago. Eiger/E2M certainly understands the anti-development climate in Vermont and the hostility and mistrust of the town towards the resort. POWDR certainly hasn't helped things by killing off the lifetime passes. Many of the people sitting on various boards for the town had those lifetime passes and it isn't going to help. Many of the people sitting on those town boards have businesses in town that will suffer if Killington has a substantial drop in skier visits. Anybody with a business on the access road has to be quite concerned about 2007/2008 revenues. I don't see how they'll cut SP Land any slack until they see some track record from POWDR for operating the resort.

Post by **Bubba** » Jun 13th, '07, 13:23

Geoff wrote:...POWDR certainly hasn't helped things by killing off the lifetime passes. Many of the people sitting on various boards for the town had those lifetime passes and it isn't going to help. Many of the people sitting on those town boards have businesses in town that will suffer if Killington has a substantial drop in skier visits. Anybody with a business on the access road has to be quite concerned about 2007/2008 revenues. I don't see how they'll cut SP Land any slack until they see some track record from POWDR for operating the resort.

Is it possible that John Cummings and Steve Selbo may have already blown off two toes and they don't even realize it yet?

autograph guy · Post by **autograph guy** » Jun 13th, '07, 13:26

couldn't wait for the new K owners to get their stuff together--skiied K last dozen years on passes--not this year--this year I'm going to what the rest of Vermont has to offer--mainly, Bush, MRG and hopefully Jay--storm chasing prolly. I always liked the first to open and last to close thing. Looks like there is different priorities now. When they look to take care of skiers then I'll be back. Will miss it and you all, not that I know any of you. At least I can come to this board and reminisce and stay updated.

SPORE · Post by **SPORE** » Jun 13th, '07, 13:36

skiadikt wrote:
SPORE wrote:
Steve wrote:Killington is not the only mountain in Vermont with great terrain. It's not the southernmost mountain with great terrain. And it doesn't have the longest season anymore either.
Last I checked, Killington still has the longest season in VT.
then you oughta check again ... da bush closed may 6, the same day as k and opened earler. granted da bush was closed mid-week that last week but in any case, the days of k claiming the longest season - first to open & last to close are over. the longest season thingy is no longer on the table.

If they closed Midweek, Killington will still use the longest season becuase technically they were operating more days.

Highway Star · Post by **Highway Star** » Jun 13th, '07, 13:38

Geoff wrote:
laseranimal wrote:Real estate WILL solve everything!

it will make SP land and Powdr very wealthy

which is the whole point of this exercise
That was what ASC thought. The problem is that the anti-development laws in Vermont make it very difficult to make a profit developing real estate. Act 250 permitting is an expensive and drawn out process. The anti-subdivision laws confiscate your profits until you've held the land for five years. The town can kill pretty much anything in the various town boards.

I'm pretty sure this is why Centex pulled out 8 months ago. Eiger/E2M certainly understands the anti-development climate in Vermont and the hostility and mistrust of the town towards the resort. POWDR certainly hasn't helped things by killing off the lifetime passes. Many of the people sitting on various boards for the town had those lifetime passes and it isn't going to help. Many of the people sitting on those town boards have businesses in town that will suffer if Killington has a substantial drop in skier visits. Anybody with a business on the access road has to be quite concerned about 2007/2008 revenues. I don't see how they'll cut SP Land any slack until they see some track record from POWDR for operating the resort.

Geoff......all disagreements aside, I completely agree with the above post. These guys made a huge mistake with their entry in this market as new owners. It could have been handled much better. After reading the entire town meeting minutes and digesting them....how could anyone in the town support the Village, when the company has already had such a negative impact overall.....and is clearly intending to do much worse in the future?

Why wasn't this handled more reasonably on KSRP's part?

- Why not come out with a more reasonable jusitfication for cancelling the bond passes, combined with a more reasonable buyout of them, immediately after the sale?

- Why not have a plan, and pass prices ready to go, right after the sale? With a real justification for raising prices - better operations?

- Why not show a real interest in having an efficient 4-season operation with overlap between the Ski, Bike, and Golf seasons?

- Why not show an interest in returing to a longer season in an efficient manner, which would integrate well with having a multi-activity 4-season resort?

- Why not come in with $5-8 Million capital to invest in the first year, to address the multiple critical needs on the mountain, but then also to deliver something new and improved, to create buzz and get a head start in becoming directly competitive with the rest of the industry again?

- Why not show a real commitment to Pico with some progress on the interconnect, even if it has to be a partial plan?

Killington has incredible potential. To be a great resort again, where every wants to be, year round......where people want to buy premium property. But to compete at the top of the market, you have to have a product that's at the top of the market.

The lack of vision for the resort from the new owners is astounding. All these new owners have shown so far is an ability to shoot themselves in the foot....again, and again, and again. What they are doing right now is laying the groundwork for the village to be stalled indefinitely, and to leave the resort languishing.