Dobbs on the Money again ... rips Bush and Kennedy

[XtremeJibber2001]

Well, since I thought you were talking about some other "send back to Mexico" issue and not the touch back provision, all I can say is I misinterpreted what you were saying. If that makes me wrong, so be it. By the way, you'd also have to send people back to the rest of Latin America, Europe, Asia and Africa under this provision. Of course, since embassies are considered foreign soil, the touch back provision might be satisfied by a trip to Washington. Either way, if one is going to file papers for legalized status and pay the fine needed, the touch back provision should not be a major hurdle.

I can see it now, 20 million Mexicans hanging out at the embassy ...

It's effectively amnesty if you assume enforcement will take 50 - 100 years. And, if it takes that long, what's the point of enforcement? We'd be far better off with the path to citizenship provisions in the bill. As for your drug analogy, most of our drug laws are essentially unenforceable so that may be a reasonable analogy, just not in the way you meant it. Laws that are unenforceable are meaningless. Enforcement of deportation law for 12 million potential criminals is, essentially, impossible thus unenforceable, thus meaningless.

So current drug laws have been ineffective? They've been effective, I know quite a few people who were arrested and fined .... that's not meaningless, especially to those individuals who got caught. It would also not be meaningless if illegals were deported and a strong fence was there to thwart the next intrusion.

My analogy is reasonable, but not the way I meant it? Huh? Which way would it have "worked"?

Damn, you may be more dense than I thought. You want enforcement of the laws against illegal immigration for 12 million people that are already here, yet you don't support deportation as it is impractical. Doh! You can't enforce without deportation. Oh, wait, I'm sorry...you support deportation over a 50 - 100 year period. Yeah, I guess you're right. Your logic holds. Sorry, I must have overlooked your implicit logic.

I'm not going over this again. If the law is enforced, that's not amnesty.

There are times I think that the quantity required for you to bite off more than you can chew is something the size of an M&M.

You can think what you want, but you're incorrect in my opinion.

[shortski]

OK then...let's be more current than the Pilgrims. How about everyone who came into this country before about 1920? Everyone, and I mean everyone - to the best of my knowledge we had no immigration limitations until the first part of the 20th century.

And I'm still waiting for anything from anyone who tells me what they plan to do with the 12 million people who are here illegally. Are you planning on mass deportation?

Close the border and enforce the law, that's all I want. No legislation is needed, the laws are in place, it's time to enforce them.

Nice dodge - what do you plan to do with the 12 million or so currently here illegally?

Have them voluntarily come in register for legal status, do a full check of what they did and where they came from and what and where they have been since illegally entering the country. Based on the information a decision to deport or allow to stay will be made. If decision to deport, deport immediately, if decision is to allow to stay, require that a penalty for illegal entry be assessed, 10% of income for ten years, this is additional to regular taxes, no access to any state or federal benefits programs during the ten year period, if convicted for any criminal offense during the ten year period immediate deportation. I can see them lining up at the door to apply.

WE all know it's going to be at best a slap on the wrist or full amnesty, the way to direct people to proper observance of the laws in not by rewarding them for breaking of the law.

[BigKahuna13]

t;]It's effectively amnesty if you assume enforcement will take 50 - 100 years. And, if it takes that long, what's the point of enforcement? We'd be far better off with the path to citizenship provisions in the bill. As for your drug analogy, most of our drug laws are essentially unenforceable so that may be a reasonable analogy, just not in the way you meant it. Laws that are unenforceable are meaningless. Enforcement of deportation law for 12 million potential criminals is, essentially, impossible thus unenforceable, thus meaningless.

So current drug laws have been ineffective? They've been effective, I know quite a few people who were arrested and fined .... that's not meaningless, especially to those individuals who got caught. It would also not be meaningless if illegals were deported and a strong fence was there to thwart the next intrusion.

My analogy is reasonable, but not the way I meant it? Huh? Which way would it have "worked"?

Current drug laws are not effective. They are supposed to be about stopping illegal drug use. In that they have failed. Fining one out of a hundred (if that many) drug users is not anywhere near effective.

Drug laws are effectively useless.

[XtremeJibber2001]

Drug laws are effectively useless.

Not really ... think of all the money it generates for the government.

[nancie2k]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90SDkhwnEIo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C4XXcFV ... ed&search=

illegals are also hired to avoid paying ss taxes, money is sent back to mexico, people come here for the free to them medical care, we have to pay for it, hospitals are going in the red because of them. there was a front page article in the record about that last week.

[Bubba]

Drug laws are effectively useless.

Not really ... think of all the money it generates for the government.

Failed Arithmetic and Economics did you?

We spend billions upon billions of dollars on drug interdiction and enforcement from the Federal level down to the local level, with little to gain from it besides jails overcrowded with low level users. How does this generate money for the government?

[BigKahuna13]

Drug laws are effectively useless.

Not really ... think of all the money it generates for the government.

Failed Arithmetic and Economics did you?

We spend billions upon billions of dollars on drug interdiction and enforcement from the Federal level down to the local level, with little to gain from it besides jails overcrowded with low level users. How does this generate money for the government?

At that's in addition to the fact that the point of drug laws is to change behavior - i.e. stop people from using drugs. That hasn't happened.

[Bling Skier]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90SDkhwnEIo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C4XXcFV ... ed&search=

illegals are also hired to avoid paying ss taxes, money is sent back to mexico, people come here for the free to them medical care, we have to pay for it, hospitals are going in the red because of them. there was a front page article in the record about that last week.

If this Bull dinky amnesty bill passes...I gonna start saying that i am an illegal so I can get in on the Free Money Grab!

Chew can't make me do dat. it aint my trabajo!

[XtremeJibber2001]

Drug laws are effectively useless.

Not really ... think of all the money it generates for the government.

Failed Arithmetic and Economics did you?

We spend billions upon billions of dollars on drug interdiction and enforcement from the Federal level down to the local level, with little to gain from it besides jails overcrowded with low level users. How does this generate money for the government?

At that's in addition to the fact that the point of drug laws is to change behavior - i.e. stop people from using drugs. That hasn't happened.

Failed arithmetic and economics? How? You're assuming it's a loss and I'm assuming it's a gain. Neither of us have the actual numbers ... arithmetic and economics has nothing to do with it. Are you feeling OKk?

Good point BK!

[Bubba]

Drug laws are effectively useless.

Not really ... think of all the money it generates for the government.

Failed Arithmetic and Economics did you?

We spend billions upon billions of dollars on drug interdiction and enforcement from the Federal level down to the local level, with little to gain from it besides jails overcrowded with low level users. How does this generate money for the government?

At that's in addition to the fact that the point of drug laws is to change behavior - i.e. stop people from using drugs. That hasn't happened.

Failed arithmetic and economics? How? You're assuming it's a loss and I'm assuming it's a gain. Neither of us have the actual numbers ... arithmetic and economics has nothing to do with it. Are you feeling OKk?

Good point BK!

OK...where's the gain? How is money generated for the government?

[XtremeJibber2001]

Not really ... think of all the money it generates for the government.

Failed Arithmetic and Economics did you?

We spend billions upon billions of dollars on drug interdiction and enforcement from the Federal level down to the local level, with little to gain from it besides jails overcrowded with low level users. How does this generate money for the government?

At that's in addition to the fact that the point of drug laws is to change behavior - i.e. stop people from using drugs. That hasn't happened.

Failed arithmetic and economics? How? You're assuming it's a loss and I'm assuming it's a gain. Neither of us have the actual numbers ... arithmetic and economics has nothing to do with it. Are you feeling OKk?

Good point BK!

OK...where's the gain? How is money generated for the government?

Like I said, are you feeling OK?

Both of us are making "assumptions" ... I can't tell you how much is gained, but you also can't tell me how much is lost. Thus, my point is that arithmetic and economics has nothing to do with it since we're both making assumptions.

I know for the most part that first time drug offenders pay upwards of $3K and spend no time in jail and personally pay court costs. The only gov't paid services are for the officer to process the offender, which doesn't cost $3K. In this particular instance, it's a gain, but I can't tell you about second, third, etc offenders because I don't know the numbers. Maybe I should ask some buddies of mine to get arrested again? haha

[nancie2k]

these are some parts of the bill they want to pass

The truth is illegal aliens would not have to learn even basic English for more than a decade. And all that time they would be entitled to free translation services at taxpayer expense.

Criminals of all kinds – including gang members, some child molesters, and absconders (i.e., “aliens who have already had their day in court and who are now subject to…removal” [covering “more than 636,000 fugitives”) are eligible for the bill’s mass amnesty

“Illegal aliens with terrorism connections are not barred from getting amnesty. An illegal alien seeking most immigration benefits must merely show ‘good moral character.’”


Illegal aliens granted amnesty or guestworkers imported via the new “Y” “temporary worker” program can claim the Earned Income Tax Credit, which “will cost taxpayers billions in just 10 years
“Affidavits from friends” are acceptable as evidence of satisfying requirements for amnesty, thus invite fraud and more illegal immigration

“In-state tuition and other higher education benefits…will be made available to current illegal aliens that are granted amnesty, even if the same instate tuition rates are not offered to all U.S. citizens,” a violation of current Federal law, which “mandates that educational institutions give citizens the same
postsecondary education benefits they offer to illegal aliens”;
AND
To be granted amnesty, illegal aliens need not pay back income taxes

http://sessions.senate.gov/pressapp/rec ... ?id=275456

[Bubba]

Failed Arithmetic and Economics did you?

We spend billions upon billions of dollars on drug interdiction and enforcement from the Federal level down to the local level, with little to gain from it besides jails overcrowded with low level users. How does this generate money for the government?

At that's in addition to the fact that the point of drug laws is to change behavior - i.e. stop people from using drugs. That hasn't happened.

Failed arithmetic and economics? How? You're assuming it's a loss and I'm assuming it's a gain. Neither of us have the actual numbers ... arithmetic and economics has nothing to do with it. Are you feeling OKk?

Good point BK!

OK...where's the gain? How is money generated for the government?

Like I said, are you feeling OK?

Both of us are making "assumptions" ... I can't tell you how much is gained, but you also can't tell me how much is lost. Thus, my point is that arithmetic and economics has nothing to do with it since we're both making assumptions.

I know for the most part that first time drug offenders pay upwards of $3K and spend no time in jail and personally pay court costs. The only gov't paid services are for the officer to process the offender, which doesn't cost $3K. In this particular instance, it's a gain, but I can't tell you about second, third, etc offenders because I don't know the numbers. Maybe I should ask some buddies of mine to get arrested again? haha

Hmmm....let's see now. Billions of dollars on enforcement and supply interdiction, including the Coast Guard and the Army at a minimum, DEA and other Federal officers, state and local law enforcement, the justice sytem including courts and jails, and you want to talk about $3,000 fines for first offenders. Stop and think - What is the cost of catching, indicting, trying and collecting that $3,000 fine? OK, that may be partially offset by paying court costs, but that doesn't cover anywhere near all of it.

Repeat offenders probably spend time in jail - any idea what the cost of that is per day, not including the capital cost of buidling the jails? And that cost is placed on top of the cost of catching, indicting and trying the offender.

You really come across as a simpleton on occasion, you know that?

[Bubba]

these are some parts of the bill they want to pass

The truth is illegal aliens would not have to learn even basic English for more than a decade. And all that time they would be entitled to free translation services at taxpayer expense.

Criminals of all kinds – including gang members, some child molesters, and absconders (i.e., “aliens who have already had their day in court and who are now subject to…removal” [covering “more than 636,000 fugitives”) are eligible for the bill’s mass amnesty

“Illegal aliens with terrorism connections are not barred from getting amnesty. An illegal alien seeking most immigration benefits must merely show ‘good moral character.’”


Illegal aliens granted amnesty or guestworkers imported via the new “Y” “temporary worker” program can claim the Earned Income Tax Credit, which “will cost taxpayers billions in just 10 years
“Affidavits from friends” are acceptable as evidence of satisfying requirements for amnesty, thus invite fraud and more illegal immigration

“In-state tuition and other higher education benefits…will be made available to current illegal aliens that are granted amnesty, even if the same instate tuition rates are not offered to all U.S. citizens,” a violation of current Federal law, which “mandates that educational institutions give citizens the same
postsecondary education benefits they offer to illegal aliens”;
AND
To be granted amnesty, illegal aliens need not pay back income taxes

http://sessions.senate.gov/pressapp/rec ... ?id=275456

Sorry Nancie - that's a characterization of the bill out of the mouth of a Senator who opposes it. It's not the actual language of the bill. He may be right or wrong, but don't say that's what the bill says - it's what Senator Sessions says the bill says.

[nancie2k]

it seems to me that he actually read the bill, which neither one of us has done.