Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

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DMC
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by DMC »

madhatter wrote:These type of directives and the purveying attitude among the anti gun crowd are ripe for exploitation, as I attempted to point out in the case of the admitted illegal killing of muskrats and stated intention to harm a bear with rubber bullets.
It was not illegal to shoot muskrats in 1977 in Ohio...

And rubber bullets are used to chase problem bears away..

http://www.dec.ny.gov/pubs/40037.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In some cases, biologists may undertake a series of aversive actions to discourage bears from returning to certain human environments. These steps include harassment with noisemakers, the use of pepper sprays specifically designed for bears, shooting the bear with non-lethal rubber bullets, and if necessary, capture and relocation.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

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steamboat1
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by steamboat1 »

http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/artic ... hecks.aspx

Biden says Administration Doesn't Have Time to Prosecute People Who Lie on Background Checks

As has been widely reported, an NRA representative recently met with an Obama administration-directed firearm task force led by longtime gun control supporter Vice-President Joe Biden. It came as no surprise that the meeting had little to do with keeping our children safe and much to do with an agenda to attack the Second Amendment. But you may be surprised to know one of the revelations that came out of the meeting.

Jim Baker, NRA-ILA's Director of Federal Affairs, represented NRA at the meeting. As detailed in a recent Daily Caller article, Mr. Baker was given five minutes to present NRA's concerns and the approach NRA saw as being the most effective way to safeguard our children. During those five minutes, Baker mentioned the need to vigorously prosecute existing gun laws. He further noted the low number of prosecutions for falsifying information on Form 4473s, and the low felony prosecution rate for gun crimes in general.

In response to Mr. Baker's comments, Vice-President Biden said, "And to your point, Mr. Baker, regarding the lack of prosecutions on lying on Form 4473s, we simply don't have the time or manpower to prosecute everybody who lies on a form, that checks a wrong box, that answers a question inaccurately." That's right: Biden said the administration just doesn't have time to prosecute crimes (felonies punishable by up to a 10-year prison sentence) under existing laws, but is proposing a host of sweeping new laws.

According to federal statistics cited in the Daily Caller article, in 2010, prosecutors considered just 22 cases of information falsification, and 40 additional background-check cases ended up before prosecutors for reasons related to unlawful gun possession. Prosecutors pursued just 44 of those 62 cases, although more than 72,600 applications were denied on the basis of a background check. Overall, gun prosecutions per capita in 2011 were down 35 percent from the previous administration's peak in 2004.

"We think it is problematic when the administration takes lightly the prosecutions under existing gun laws and yet does not seem to have a problem promoting a whole host of other gun laws," said Baker. "If we are not going to enforce the laws that are on the books, it not only engenders disrespect for the law but it makes law-abiding gun owners wonder why we are going through this exercise we are going through now."

Commenting on the administration's inability to prosecute persons who lie to obtain a firearm, NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox said, "They don't have time to pursue people who are dangerous, who aren't supposed to get guns, and the message they have sent is literally 'Good luck, go get them elsewhere.' You can talk all you want," Cox continued, "but until there is a will to follow through, then it is literally just going to paper over the problem and guarantee that bad people continue to have access to firearms and good people will be blamed for it."
madhatter
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by madhatter »

DMC wrote:So says the guy that falsely said that a Bushmaster wasn't used to slaughter innocent children and their teachers last month..

At least I don't lie, plagiarize and talk about the President being assassinated...

I don't need to explain SHTI to you... You lost that right a loooong time ago with your personal attacks...

Keep protecting peoples ability to slaughter children easily...
You on the WRONG side lady...
They say now that there were actually four handguns inside the school, not just two as we were initially told. Four handguns and apparently only handguns that were taken into the school.

We knew that Adam Lanza, the man said to be the gunman here, also had an ‘assault-style’ AR-15 -style rifle that he had had taken to the school, it was in the car he drove there, his mother’s car, but we have been told by several officials that he had left that in the car.


http://www.ijreview.com/2013/01/30208-n ... -shooting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

but doesn't suit the the anti-second amendment crowd's agenda now does it?
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Coydog
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by Coydog »

UPDATE: State Police Confirm Weapons Used in Newtown Shootings

The Connecticut State Police released a statement on January 18th attempting to clarify the confusion generated by the inconsistent and irresponsible media reporting following the Sandy Hook elementary shooting in Newtown on December 14th.

The released list of weapons sets the record straight on an issue that has driven the blogosphere to increasingly speculative lengths: exactly which weapons were used in the shooting?

The weapons seized from the attacker Adam Lanza are as follows, according to the State Police:

#1. Bushmaster .223 caliber– model XM15-E2S rifle with high capacity 30 round clips

#2. Glock 10 mm handgun

#3. Sig-Sauer P226 9mm handgun

Seized from suspect’s car in parking lot:

#4. Izhmash Canta-12 12 gauge Shotgun (seized from car in parking lot)

The Bushmaster .223 (not .233) can be assumed to be a semi-automatic rifle, although variants in fully automatic have been made for military and police purchasers. It is a “lightweight, small-caliber semi-automatic rifle, with a light recoil and a variety of optional barrel lengths and targeting/aiming devices.”

The Bushmaster .223 would fall under the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban legislation [Section 2(B)], since it has a detachable magazine (in this case, a 30-round magazine). The term “assault weapons” should be noted, since it appears to be politicized term used customarily to suit the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban legislation. The term is a redundancy, because there is no such thing as a “non-assault weapon.”
...
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by Bubba »

Coydog wrote:UPDATE: State Police Confirm Weapons Used in Newtown Shootings

The Connecticut State Police released a statement on January 18th attempting to clarify the confusion generated by the inconsistent and irresponsible media reporting following the Sandy Hook elementary shooting in Newtown on December 14th.

The released list of weapons sets the record straight on an issue that has driven the blogosphere to increasingly speculative lengths: exactly which weapons were used in the shooting?

The weapons seized from the attacker Adam Lanza are as follows, according to the State Police:

#1. Bushmaster .223 caliber– model XM15-E2S rifle with high capacity 30 round clips

#2. Glock 10 mm handgun

#3. Sig-Sauer P226 9mm handgun

Seized from suspect’s car in parking lot:

#4. Izhmash Canta-12 12 gauge Shotgun (seized from car in parking lot)

The Bushmaster .223 (not .233) can be assumed to be a semi-automatic rifle, although variants in fully automatic have been made for military and police purchasers. It is a “lightweight, small-caliber semi-automatic rifle, with a light recoil and a variety of optional barrel lengths and targeting/aiming devices.”

The Bushmaster .223 would fall under the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban legislation [Section 2(B)], since it has a detachable magazine (in this case, a 30-round magazine). The term “assault weapons” should be noted, since it appears to be politicized term used customarily to suit the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban legislation. The term is a redundancy, because there is no such thing as a “non-assault weapon.”
...
The article says "The weapons seized from the attacker Adam Lanza are as follows, according to the State Police...". It does not say which were actually used in the shooting. So...still no clear statement of which guns were used and what was left in the car.
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madhatter
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by madhatter »

Coydog wrote:UPDATE: State Police Confirm Weapons Used in Newtown Shootings

The Connecticut State Police released a statement on January 18th attempting to clarify the confusion generated by the inconsistent and irresponsible media reporting following the Sandy Hook elementary shooting in Newtown on December 14th.

The released list of weapons sets the record straight on an issue that has driven the blogosphere to increasingly speculative lengths: exactly which weapons were used in the shooting?

The weapons seized from the attacker Adam Lanza are as follows, according to the State Police:

#1. Bushmaster .223 caliber– model XM15-E2S rifle with high capacity 30 round clips

#2. Glock 10 mm handgun

#3. Sig-Sauer P226 9mm handgun

Seized from suspect’s car in parking lot:

#4. Izhmash Canta-12 12 gauge Shotgun (seized from car in parking lot)

The Bushmaster .223 (not .233) can be assumed to be a semi-automatic rifle, although variants in fully automatic have been made for military and police purchasers. It is a “lightweight, small-caliber semi-automatic rifle, with a light recoil and a variety of optional barrel lengths and targeting/aiming devices.”

The Bushmaster .223 would fall under the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban legislation [Section 2(B)], since it has a detachable magazine (in this case, a 30-round magazine). The term “assault weapons” should be noted, since it appears to be politicized term used customarily to suit the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban legislation. The term is a redundancy, because there is no such thing as a “non-assault weapon.”
...
so still no confirmation as to which weapons he USED? over a month later? s/b quite easy to determine what types of rnds were fired. But it seems as though there is a constant suppression of evidence here as well as in CO. Guess I should know better than to trust NBC but they did insist they confirmed their info w law enforcement officials.

"The correspondent makes it clear over and over again that he confirmed this information with federal and state officials." so apparently that is a purposefully false statement? or just one more piece of conflicting "official" "evidence" ( that is neither official nor evidence?)

Just like in CO there is far more contradictory evidence than fact floating around, and it's nearly impossible to determine the actual truth from what anyone in the general public is able to gain access to. When in doubt, trust no one...
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shortski
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by shortski »

http://www.examiner.com/article/sandy-h ... ling-apart" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The dam finally burst this week as the mainstream media was forced to begin addressing the many very serious unanswered questions regarding the alleged Sandy Hook elementary school massacre.

Despite the fact that people questioning the official narrative has become one of the hottest media topics of the week, there's a very real possibility the right questions may never get asked in any meaningful way, at least not publicly. But with so many openly obvious anomalies, ridiculous coincidences and projected media falsehoods surrounding the event, people are figuring out what's actually happening on their own and hundreds of the largest media outlets around the country have had no choice but to talk about or, depending on who you talk to, attempt avoiding those circumstances to mostly avoid being seen as complicit.

An incredibly thorough investigation into the timeline of events surrounding the Sandy Hook school shooting tragedy in Newtown, CT. Complete with evidence including news footage, images, audio and smart reporting that breaks down the timeline of events in a way in which you may have never been exposed. "BrendanHunt.com (X-Ray Ultra Studios) exposes a cover-up of the facts concerning the Sandy Hook shooting in this 2-and-a-half hour video presentation/citizen's investigation. Evidence suggests that there were several people involved in this planned event, with the prime suspect being career petty criminal Christopher A. Rodia."

The Sandy Hook Cover Up – Full Movie: A well documented breakdown of the timeline surrounding the Sandy Hook shooting tragedy. News, images, audio, commentary.The Sandy Hook Cover Up – Full Movie: A well documented breakdown of the timeline surrounding the Sandy Hook shooting tragedy. News, images, audio, commentary.

That's because a massive outpouring of concern over why the media has refused to report the situation accurately has caused a tidal wave of indignation around the country. Those who have actually dared to look into what others are pointing out, regarding just how much has been left out or skewed by the media, is literally waking millions to a reality they thought they'd never have to contemplate. At least, not in the US. But years of Internet erosion and the endless open-flow of unabated information has allowed the dots to be eventually connected and money trails to be followed and enough puzzle pieces have been aligned allowing the tallest of the politically savvy to start seeing over the formerly insurmountable mountain of public persuasion known as the establishment-controlled, “mainstream” media.

Once people actually go take a look, their initial feelings of anger toward “anyone who would dare disrespect the victims and their families,” by simply pointing out the obvious, quickly begins to turn into feelings of confusion and concern over such egregious misrepresentations of the facts. People can see it with their own eyes and, as a result, the Western establishment's media, on many levels, has been forced to address the growing reality that not everybody is buying into establishment propaganda any longer. As to be expected, what the media has done instead is go into damage control.

Just as they've done in countless other similar situations, while treating its followers like children, they first attack outside messengers with derogatory terminology, calling those attempting to point anything out that doesn't jive with the official narrative conspiracy “theorists” and “racists,” etc., just before twisting and misrepresenting what's being pointed out and totally avoiding that which cannot be easily misconstrued or hidden. It's actually quite transparent and easy to see the pattern.

In spite of what the media insinuates, rest assured very few ever want to believe the US government, or rogue entities within, would do such horrible things, not even so-called conspiracy “theorists.” No one wants to be forced to come to terms with their country not being what they thought it was. But when all the facts point to an alternate reality existing, as opposed to the one the media is forcing down everyone's throats, there's no choice but to start having second thoughts, regardless of how unwanted or stomach-wrenching those thoughts may be.

Quite possibly the most obvious example would be to point out that the entire gun control “debate” hinges on the fact that “assault” weapons were used to kill children and staff at the school. Even though it was reported, complete with video evidence the day after the shootings, the only so-called “assault” weapon at the scene, which actually looks more like a shotgun, had been left in the trunk of the car, and was never used. (A car that ended up not belonging to the alledged shooter, Adam Lanza, or his mother after all).

In spite of this bombshell information, the media as a whole (scriptwriters and teleprompter programmers) ran with the false assertion an assault rifle was used nonetheless and are still largely going with that fake reality today, especially on TV... Fully knowing that's not the case. Unless you just crawled out of bin Laden's cave for the first time, everyone's heard the constant drumbeat for gun “control” on almost every radio and TV station in the country, especially the argument that so-called “assault” weapons and large capacity magazines should be banned, despite not being used at the shooting. (Therefore, an assault weapons or large magazine ban would not have prevented the school shootings, regardless).

Worse, many politicians in Washington, including Obama, also ran with it like solid gold, even going as far as producing a string of over 20 executive orders Wednesday to attempt banning American's right to own the type of weapons “used at the school.” Openly lying, misrepresenting the circumstances and using it all, including innocent, (naturally-gun-hating) children on the signing stage with him, to garner emotional support for the lie.

Any takers on the chances Obama ever fesses-up to there never having been a so-called “assault” rifle inside Sandy Hook elementary school or why his administration sent literally 10s of thousands of the guns he now demonizes to Mexican drug cartels, south of the border?

Every American in the country should be absolutely outraged beyond belief over just this one aspect of the tragedy's aftermath, even if an opponent to so-called “assault” weapons ownership (if anyone can honestly define the meaning of an assault weapon and what that looks like). If nothing else, simply for being manipulated into going along with a controversial political agenda. Especially one that more (adult) Americans statistically disagree with than those who support it. Unfortunately, that's only the beginning of America's tyranny problem.

In addition to every post-Wild West statistic showing violent crime rates dropping in areas where gun ownership grew, one of the big secrets is that many alternative journalists are getting very good at knowing what to look for, recognizing patterns and seeing the signs that criminals leave behind. Just like old-school journalists used to do, prior to the age of mass-information manipulation. Back when they actually investigated and publicly analyzed every last piece of available evidence, instead of merely reading from, officially admitted, pre-scripted teleprompter copy, or a list of talking points given by “officials” on the scene, for a paycheck.

When so many people see the easy-to-find evidence for themselves, by merely going online, typing in the appropriate search term and taking an honest and objective look at all the evidence, the ability for the media to merely say whatever they want and have control over the “court of public opinion,” is slowly turning into an open info-war over the psychological acceptance of what is seen as perceived reality.

More examples show those who the media brands conspiracy “theorists” have pointed out the fact that a “crisis actor” seems to have been used for an alleged post-funeral interview and was caught laughing and joking before getting into character for the camera while live footage was rolling. But instead of addressing the more obvious example, the media created a diversion for those who refuse to go look it up for themselves, and instead focused on and made a big deal out of an entirely different individual that also seems, to those who have looked into the situation on their own, like just another crisis actor, just not quite as obvious and much easier for the media to attempt denouncing. Anderson Cooper's recent tirade is the example everyone is talking about and using as (laughably un-) “credible” material.

The more startling examples, however, are the ones the media isn't really discussing very much, for obvious reasons. The arrest of a camouflaged individual running into the woods, away from the school, as officers arrived and the fact that the “crisis actors” and officers on display, for public consumption, seem to have been pulled from an active (school shooter) drill that was ironically being held right down the road at the exact same time, are themselves cause enough to be red flag worthy. They want you to buy the excuse this was all presumably innocent oversight, however. Simply another extraordinary coincidence, where a pre-planned government exercise turns into a conveniently live event, just like 9/11 on multiple levels, just like the 7/7 London bombings and just like Sandy Hook elementary school and others.

Even though the likelihood even one of those situations going live in the exact same manner, at the same time and at the exact same location as a pre-set training drill covering the exact same scenario, much less all three, is so ridiculously miniscule you'd have a better opportunity of winning the Powerball three times. Nonetheless, if you happen to be aware of these circumstances, the establishment and its media push the idea it's all one giant coincidence and you're a conspiracy “theorist” a “racist” or a “right-wing nut-job” if you'd dare think otherwise.

Never mind the instances websites and Facebook pages, blog postings, tribute videos and victims compensations sites were officially set up or mistakenly posted days and weeks in advance of the shootings.

They also want you to believe it was just a coincidence that a massive medical drill was also being held at a local Denver-area medical school, at the exact same time the Aurora Theater shooting happened. The victims of which just so happen to have been watching a movie that referenced Sandy Hook on a map as a potential terror-target-area, who also happened to have just watched the world-premiere of a music video, moments before the movie and shootings began, showing a bunch of skeletons sitting in a movie theater. But that's all just coincidence too, officially.

Officials in Giles County, VA know better than to believe it was mere coincidence however when they were made aware their name also appeared on the same Dark Knight Rises terrorist-target-area map and subsequently shut down the entire school district recently. I guess that means all the public and school officials in Giles County would have to be considered conspiracy “theorists” as well then. Even though it's ridiculous to assume even one of these situations, much less all of them, can be mere coincidence.

The real problem is, an ugly, rabid cat is slowly ripping it's way out of a very tough bag and the only reason it's taken even this long to get out is because, deep down, no one really wants to see it (Stockholm Syndrome) and the establishment knows it and uses it to their advantage. What's worse is when people finally start seeing the animal that emerges, it's going to be more like a Mogwai (Gremlins) that Americans were fooled into giving a bath and feeding after midnight.
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Coydog
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by Coydog »

These are not "offical" reports, but they are consistent even though they originate from widely varying sources.

Newtown shooter's guns: What we know

The primary weapon used in the attack was a "Bushmaster AR-15 assault-type weapon," said Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance. The rifle is a Bushmaster version of a widely made AR-15, the civilian version of the M-16 rifle used by the U.S. military. The original M-16 patent ran out years ago, and now the AR-15 is manufactured by several gunmakers. Unlike the military version, the AR-15 is a semiautomatic, firing one bullet per squeeze of the trigger. But like the M-16, ammunition is loaded through a magazine. In the school shooting, police say Lanza's rifle used numerous 30-round magazines.
...

Adam Lanza Shot Victims with Semi-Automatic Rifle

Adam Lanza used a Bushmaster .223 semi-automatic rifle at close range to kill children and adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut on Friday.

"I believe everybody was hit more than once," said Dr. H. Wayne Carver, the state of Connecticut's Chief Medical Examiner.

He said the bullets were uniquely damaging and that Lanza's victims died almost immediately.

"The bullets are designed in such a fashion the energy is deposited in the tissue so the bullet stays in," Carver said. He described the wounds as a "very devastating set of injuries."

Two handguns were also found at the scene, but Carver described the Bushmaster as the killer's primary weapon. A fourth weapon was found nearby. The weapons discovered at the school apparently belonged to a family member, possibly his mother, according to authorities.

Lanza, 20, forced his way into Sandy Hook on Friday morning and killed 20 children and six adults before committing suicide. He drove to the school after shooting his mother in the face at their home.

The weapons that police recovered from the scene included a Glock 9-mm handgun, a Sig Sauer 9-mm handgun and a Bushmaster rifle. Police also found .223 shell casings. Lanza was wearing a bullet-proof vest.


Connecticut State Police Clarify Sandy Hook Weapons Questions

The debate over gun control in our country has spawned many rumors in relation to the weapons used at Sandy Hook Elementary. Many blogs and other forums are reporting that the weapon removed from the shooter's vehicle was the AR-15 and this was not used in the shooting. On Friday, January 18th, the Connecticut State Police issued a press release (see text below) about this issue and confirmed the Bushmaster was found inside the school.

I contacted the CT State Police for further clarification. Lt. Paul Vance told me the Bushmaster was, in fact, fired inside the school and used to kill all 26 people who died that day.

I asked Vance about the magazine capacity of the handguns that were found inside the school. He said he did not have that information, but confirmed that the shooter had numerous magazines with him inside the school.

It was very clear in speaking with him that they are frustrated with the rumors about this case and the manipulation of the tragedy for political purposes by both sides of the gun control debate. There was obvious pain in his voice reflecting of the exposure to the carnage of the crime scene experienced by all who responded to the scene of this crime and those who continue to investigate the details.
...
XtremeJibber2001
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

Welcome back, Coydog.
madhatter
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by madhatter »

"Just as they've done in countless other similar situations, while treating its followers like children, they first attack outside messengers with derogatory terminology, calling those attempting to point anything out that doesn't jive with the official narrative conspiracy “theorists” and “racists,” etc., just before twisting and misrepresenting what's being pointed out and totally avoiding that which cannot be easily misconstrued or hidden. It's actually quite transparent and easy to see the pattern."

not possible</sarc>
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madhatter
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by madhatter »

"Adam Lanza used a Bushmaster .223 semi-automatic rifle at close range to kill children and adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut on Friday.

"I believe everybody was hit more than once," said Dr. H. Wayne Carver, the state of Connecticut's Chief Medical Examiner.

He said the bullets were uniquely damaging and that Lanza's victims died almost immediately.

"The bullets are designed in such a fashion the energy is deposited in the tissue so the bullet stays in," Carver said. He described the wounds as a "very devastating set of injuries."

even this is inconsistent, the .223 is a high velocity rifle cartridge known for it's "tumbling, ripping effect" however at very close range this bullet would not yet have begun its "tumble" and thus would be highly likely to penetrate through the victims body cleanly unless it were to strike solid mass ( bone, not tissue as described above). part of the reason the 30-06 springfield round was replaced by the .308/7.62 NATO rnd


Seeing as we don't know exactly what "close range" here means and we don't know what the exact make up of the ammo is or where the victims were struck, it's impossible to say definitively, but in an execution style killing at point blank range the 9mm handgun would be both easier and more effective to use than the .223 rifle.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by shortski »

The damage describe by the coroner indicates to me that the rounds used were jacketed hollow points and not the full metal jacket bullets used by most militaries in the world.

As far as tumbling. If bullets tumbled in flight they would be useless. You would never be able to hit your target.

Bullets will "tumble" somewhat because of physics once they enter soft tissue. Boat tail bullets (pointed end gradually getting larger in diameter before being necked down and crimped into shell)

Image

Just like in a car when you hit the brakes everything keeps moving forward. As the bullet continues to move forward in the tissue it will shift the mass forward and the it may rotate one or two time before coming to a stop or exiting the tissue.

As I posted in the other topic:

The misinformation is either by design or ignorance. It matters not, people should get informed and stop taking in what is being dished out.
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madhatter
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by madhatter »

shortski wrote:The damage describe by the coroner indicates to me that the rounds used were jacketed hollow points and not the full metal jacket bullets used by most militaries in the world.

As far as tumbling. If bullets tumbled in flight they would be useless. You would never be able to hit your target.

Bullets will "tumble" somewhat because of physics once they enter soft tissue. Boat tail bullets (pointed end gradually getting larger in diameter before being necked down and crimped into shell)

Image

Just like in a car when you hit the brakes everything keeps moving forward. As the bullet continues to move forward in the tissue it will shift the mass forward and the it may rotate one or two time before coming to a stop or exiting the tissue.

As I posted in the other topic:

The misinformation is either by design or ignorance. It matters not, people should get informed and stop taking in what is being dished out.
https://www.google.com/search?q=tumblin ... =firefox-a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the point I was trying to make was that the 223 round would be less likely to tumble and more likely to penetrate cleanly at very close range. I fully understand that the bullet doesn't come "tumbling" out of the rifled barrel, ( so I guess I worded that incorrectly) but at point blank to a foot or two, that round would likely penetrate cleanly thru soft tissue. As you said a jacketed hollow point, blacktalon or similar type ammo at the same range would be more likely to expand on impact, even more likely so with a lower velocity rnd like the 9mm.
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Re: Obama’s plan to reduce gun violence

Post by madhatter »

SS what do you make of this guy's write up?

http://firespeedtactical.com/tech/223-5-56-nato/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"As a medium game cartridge, the .223 is under powered if fast killing is to be expected with ordinary chest shots. The one exception is when using tumbling FMJ ammunition which completely and utterly changes the performance of this cartridge on medium game.

The tumbling 55 grain bullet is truly violent and fast killing and is the most effective medium game hunting load for the .223. Exit wounds on medium game are often as wide as 3”. However, it must be stated that when full metal jacket ammunition tumbles, the bullet also very gradually falls to pieces due to the unsealed base of the bullet allowing jacket core separation. Because the process is gradual, wounding occurs through vitals and bone, rather than on impact resulting in adequate penetration for all but tail on shots on medium game."
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