Science Rant, Not politics: Can CO2 cause "Climate Change?"

[madhatter]

I am actually a damn good scientists

No. You're not. Not even in the singular. You scour the internet looking for something/anything that will confirm your point of view, regardless of the quality of the source. You cherry pick your data. I'd hardly call that science. Oh, I suppose you conduct little experiments and pat yourself on the back, but that hardly makes you a "scientist", so quit deluding yourself and others. If you prescribe medicine ("here, take a couple of aspirin") that doesn't make you a doctor. In fact, if you tried to pass yourself off as a doctor, you might wind up in jail. You can call yourself a horse all day, but that doesn't make you a horse either. Just the hind end of one. I dunno, the same people who insist on science here allow jenner to call himself a chick and justify it with science that hasn't even been discovered yet...hard to take you guys seriously w that kind of contradiction, inconsistency and blatant dismissal of reality...

THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED ...is a lie.

No, it is you that is lying. Mostly to yourself, I suppose. Do you even understand what "settled" means? It doesn't mean or require that everything about a subject be known, settled means "resolved or reached and agreement about". When 97% of the scientists working in a field agree on something, that's consensus; that means they've reached an agreement on something. Just because you disagree doesn't suddenly negate that consensus. Is the planet warming? Yes. Are humans the primary cause? Yes. yeah ok if you say so...The 5th IPCC made both those points quite clear. Does it mean there can be other causes as well? Also yes, but the consensus is that their impact is less than anthropogenic causes. yeah the consensus is ...maybe we just need less people right?

The planet is warming. What is your scientific explanation? Is it C02 and other greenhouse gases? If not, what is the source of the excess heat? Or are you so delusional that you believe there's no warming going on, and it is actually a conspiracy of tens of thousands of corrupt scientists world wide that have been lying to the public for the last 30 years?

guess ya just gotta believe in "science" as a higher power...

that said, let's get back to the real reason for opposition to the AGW agenda....Govt overreach...

when you factor that in and compare it to the whole obamacare propaganda and subsequent failure, it sounds very much like the same kinda gruberesque propaganda that counted on the "stupidity of the american voter" to make it happen...w/o them it doesn't pass...if you want any AGW stuff to pass you need to offer free stuff with it...yeah that's the ticket...free stuff for everyone!!!

regardless of whatever science you want to use as evidence that jenner is now a woman, (I mean AGW is anthropogenic), and no matter what science you use to prove we need to hurry up and sign this bill to see what's in it, (I mean AGW is the greatest threat we currently face), unless it doesn't cost anyone a single dime, not one dime and in fact they will save 2500 dollars, you got nothing that anyone in any number great enough to pass legislation is interested in...


get working on that free stuff for everyone...obamathermometers? obamabarometers? doubt they go over like obamaphones...

Let me see if I have this straight:
1. There's no global warming because Bruce Jenner something, something... I'm not quite sure what your point was.
2. We should disregard science because it isn't a "higher power". Again, I missed your point, what is it? Facts don't matter? We should go with your gut feelings?
3. Climate change is really about government overreach. Okay, that's recognizable: you think its a conspiracy! Yay! I got one! Who's the mastermind? You seem to think it's Obama but really, shouldn't you be blaming the UN? And obviously the other nations of the world that are also in on it? How many people do you estimate are actually in on this ruse? And I'm curious, since you seem to have it all figured out: have scientists been duped by the government, or is it the other way around? Or is everyone in on it? Liberals/Progressives, scientists, the government (well, actually all governments), main stream media, who else? Thank God we have the Koch's and their billions to set the record straight for the simple folk.
4. You mentioned something about Obamacare, because WTF, why not: if your going to run off the rails, why settle for half way? Let's have us a full on nuclear meltdown train wreck right here on Kzone. TBH, I'm shocked there wasn't a Hillary rant thrown in for good measure.
5. Then you jump back to Bruce Jenner again and throw in something about free stuff, because, again, why the f*ck not? We can't have climate change without free stuff.

uhh all of that is the MO of the left, that you can;t follow along is a direct reflection on your inability to read and comprehend...

I admit it: I have no f*cking clue what you just wrote, but to be fair, I've never seen any evidence that you do either. But it was a lovely rant.

wow you really are incapable of comprehension...let me shorten it to something you might understand...climate change legislation is a non starter for the vast majority of voters and the credibility of those who support it is as suspect as the credibility of gruber and the ACA supporters...I agree you have no clue, that's the problem...your "sales pitch" is not working and your only answer to that is to belittle those who aren't buying it...as if that'll work...

[madhatter]

I am actually a damn good scientists

No. You're not. Not even in the singular. You scour the internet looking for something/anything that will confirm your point of view, regardless of the quality of the source. You cherry pick your data. I'd hardly call that science. Oh, I suppose you conduct little experiments and pat yourself on the back, but that hardly makes you a "scientist", so quit deluding yourself and others. If you prescribe medicine ("here, take a couple of aspirin") that doesn't make you a doctor. In fact, if you tried to pass yourself off as a doctor, you might wind up in jail. You can call yourself a horse all day, but that doesn't make you a horse either. Just the hind end of one. I dunno, the same people who insist on science here allow jenner to call himself a chick and justify it with science that hasn't even been discovered yet...hard to take you guys seriously w that kind of contradiction, inconsistency and blatant dismissal of reality...

THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED ...is a lie.

No, it is you that is lying. Mostly to yourself, I suppose. Do you even understand what "settled" means? It doesn't mean or require that everything about a subject be known, settled means "resolved or reached and agreement about". When 97% of the scientists working in a field agree on something, that's consensus; that means they've reached an agreement on something. Just because you disagree doesn't suddenly negate that consensus. Is the planet warming? Yes. Are humans the primary cause? Yes. yeah ok if you say so...The 5th IPCC made both those points quite clear. Does it mean there can be other causes as well? Also yes, but the consensus is that their impact is less than anthropogenic causes. yeah the consensus is ...maybe we just need less people right?

The planet is warming. What is your scientific explanation? Is it C02 and other greenhouse gases? If not, what is the source of the excess heat? Or are you so delusional that you believe there's no warming going on, and it is actually a conspiracy of tens of thousands of corrupt scientists world wide that have been lying to the public for the last 30 years?

guess ya just gotta believe in "science" as a higher power...

that said, let's get back to the real reason for opposition to the AGW agenda....Govt overreach...

when you factor that in and compare it to the whole obamacare propaganda and subsequent failure, it sounds very much like the same kinda gruberesque propaganda that counted on the "stupidity of the american voter" to make it happen...w/o them it doesn't pass...if you want any AGW stuff to pass you need to offer free stuff with it...yeah that's the ticket...free stuff for everyone!!!

regardless of whatever science you want to use as evidence that jenner is now a woman, (I mean AGW is anthropogenic), and no matter what science you use to prove we need to hurry up and sign this bill to see what's in it, (I mean AGW is the greatest threat we currently face), unless it doesn't cost anyone a single dime, not one dime and in fact they will save 2500 dollars, you got nothing that anyone in any number great enough to pass legislation is interested in...


get working on that free stuff for everyone...obamathermometers? obamabarometers? doubt they go over like obamaphones...

That pretty much explains the Trump following right there. Conspiracy and the stupidity of the American voter. This country is f***.

Yup

It's not Trump and his policies that I fear as much as it is his supporters.

Im no Clinton fan, but it's clear she misspoke. What she meant to say was "Basket case deplorables." Madhatter is a (not so) shining example of exactly what she was talking about. Deranged rants like this one (and several others daily) prove that out.

typical bigoted response...the ACA despite all the left wing assurance has been a complete failure, jenner is still a dude, and AGW legislation is something most americans don;t want and something that won;'t be happening any time soon...and all you have is insults for those who disagree with you...deplorable for sure...nice projection...

[madhatter]

Alright ...all you folks that believe that catastrophic anthropogenic climate change is real and proven ...because...(and ONLY because ) you think that "well 97% of scientists can't be wrong" ...are simply dumb as stumps and I am REALLY BORED of trying to use facts and logic to dispel your delusions because well...you are actually dumb as stumps (and too lazy to change that simple fact) No one of you bedwetters EVER answer my simple clear questions...hell you never even read the whole posts (and admit that fact) because you are some particular combination of dumb/lazy AND ARROGANT.

Like the simple peasants of the dark ages who knew witches had ruined their crops because "97% of clerics agree that witches causes crop losses."

Same goes for all you Grubers who buy into the insane anti-Trump PROPAGANDA.

The people attacking Trump are THE EXACT SAME PEOPLE who lied us into invading IRAQ. The same news outlets , the same personalities...the same PNAC d!ckheads.

THINK ABOUT IT...why are these people so RABIDLY anti-Trump

... or just keep being easily manipulated fools. Useful idiots

. Look into counter-narratives about any of the NONSENSE they attack Trump & Putin over.

For instance look at BOTH versions about Russia and Crimea (there is a Russian narrative about what happened in Crimea)not just the insane version spread everyday on MSM. Don't be arrogant (we are right , the Russians are evil) and don't be lazy.

The Russian version of Crimea/ Ukraine is much more credible than the IMF version. But you guys are too lazy or too dumb to have figured that out yet.

Uh huh. Whatever, Dude. Got it: U.S. bad, Russia good. Thanks for clarifying that.

Hey buddy do yourself a favor and READ something outside the MSM. Really try to have an open mind and read how the Russians explain Crimea and Ukraine. If you honestly and objectively consider both side s of this issue you will realize you have been mislead IN EXACTLY the same way YOU were (probably) mislead by the Niger yellowcake forgeries. I was not. I was screaming "liar" when Colin Powell presented his case at the UN because it was already obvious that the "weapons of mass destruction case against Hussein was a complete fabrication by the PNAC crowd. Those LIES told by the VERY SAME LIARS attacking Trump today convinced all the sheeple we needed to invade Iraq. It was a DISASTER for OUR nation.

Yeah so you drool "Russia good, US bad" because that is how F@#@ing primitive your ideation is. NAILED IT...

Take a year off and read something else besides the Washington Post and New York Times. I wish I had a nickle for every time their narratives have been shown to be ludicrous propaganda.

[Sgt Eddy Brewers]

There is clearly a pattern of conspiracy theories and you supporting the bad guys here. Have you tried talking to actual Ukrainians about Russia? I have. They migrated to the US for good reasons. I think your tin foil hat may be leaking bro.

Actual Ukrainians? Your phrase again echoes the childlike simplicity of your thoughts.

You probably met some folks from WESTERN Ukraine who DO NOT SPEAK RUSSIAN like virtually EVERYONE in EASTERN Ukraine does. They were obviously not upset about Victoria Nuland's role in provoking the madness at maidan that led to to OVERTHROW of the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED pro-Russian leader of the Ukraine. Those in eastern Ukraine, with natural cultural and linguistic ties to Russia were shocked by the CIA-sponsored coup and subsequent ILLEGAL activity by the ascendant oligarchs. They chose to reject the illegally established Poroshenko government. The whole thing was precipitated by the the duly-elected Yanukovych government negotiating favorable loans with Russia after finding that the loan agreements with the IMF would destroy Ukraine.

Putin is no fool. He offered favorable terms to help encourage stronger ties with Ukraine. The IMF went b@tsh!t crazy and decided to overthrow the Yanukovych government (which had been, I repeat, recently legally elected to power).

Like I said...you should read a little bit of narrative from OUTSIDE of MSM sources. You know it is the principle ALL SMART people always use:
DON"T MAKE UP YOUR MIND UNTIL YOU HEAR BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY.
You seem like the kind of dude that is ready to convict BEFORE the defense even presents their case.

Look up Nuland, maidan, CIA and if you like...snipers (a more speculative topic)

Also google Ukraine and gold and taken.

Also look on You tube for bombing videos from donbass (eastern Ukraine) we are supporting war criminals from Kiev in order to enforce the policies of the IMF...yeah and look up IMF loans to Ukraine...the heart and soul of this whole sh!tshow.

[Guy in Shorts]

Catastrophic effect of Climate Change was showcased last week as Hillary overheated in her pantsuit. If she can’t wear potato sacks and pantsuits she can’t get elected. Must be another one of those Right Wing Conspiracy’s she cries about.

[Sgt Eddy Brewers]

Catastrophic effect of Climate Change was showcased last week as Hillary overheated in her pantsuit. If she can’t wear potato sacks and pantsuits she can’t get elected. Must be another one of those Right Wing Conspiracy’s she cries about.

Yup. NYC got up to the unprecedented heat of 77 degrees that late summer morning causing our hero to become just another victim of global warming.

People!!!! This has to stop. PLEASE stop driving to Killington....your exhaust is killing our heroes.

[rogman]

Ron White was right, you can't fix stupid.

Now to drag this back from the political abyss. Regarding the inability to attribute a particular storm to global warming/climate change, there's actually been a lot of work done in that regard. In essence they are using modeling to back out the effects of climate change from recent storms.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... o-warming?

In early August, for example, Louisiana was struck by torrential r*ins that caused severe flooding – killing 13 people and damaging about 60,000 homes. Less than a month later, a team of scientists concluded that human-caused climate change had probably doubled the chances of Louisiana being hit by downpours like that.

The original paper, submitted to the journal Hydrology and Earth System Sciences is here:
http://www.hydrol-earth-syst-sci-discus ... -2016-448/

[Sgt Eddy Brewers]

Ron White was right, you can't fix stupid.

Now to drag this back from the political abyss. Regarding the inability to attribute a particular storm to global warming/climate change, there's actually been a lot of work done in that regard. In essence they are using modeling to back out the effects of climate change from recent storms.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... o-warming?

In early August, for example, Louisiana was struck by torrential r*ins that caused severe flooding – killing 13 people and damaging about 60,000 homes. Less than a month later, a team of scientists concluded that human-caused climate change had probably doubled the chances of Louisiana being hit by downpours like that.

The original paper, submitted to the journal Hydrology and Earth System Sciences is here:
http://www.hydrol-earth-syst-sci-discus ... -2016-448/

I will respond to your SCIENTIFIC representations...

AFTER

You respond to mine...just once at least...

so... Is the recent HISTORIC HURRICANE DROUGHT caused by "elevated" CO2????

Please , once, an actual response to a scientific question.

[rogman]

I answered two pages back. And let me add (to clarify) Why did you restrict your fewer hurricanes to major Atlantic storms that hit the coast? Why not world wide? Is it because it fails to prove your point?

[Woodsrider]

There is clearly a pattern of conspiracy theories and you supporting the bad guys here. Have you tried talking to actual Ukrainians about Russia? I have. They migrated to the US for good reasons. I think your tin foil hat may be leaking bro.

Actual Ukrainians? Your phrase again echoes the childlike simplicity of your thoughts.

You probably met some folks from WESTERN Ukraine who DO NOT SPEAK RUSSIAN like virtually EVERYONE in EASTERN Ukraine does. They were obviously not upset about Victoria Nuland's role in provoking the madness at maidan that led to to OVERTHROW of the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED pro-Russian leader of the Ukraine. Those in eastern Ukraine, with natural cultural and linguistic ties to Russia were shocked by the CIA-sponsored coup and subsequent ILLEGAL activity by the ascendant oligarchs. They chose to reject the illegally established Poroshenko government. The whole thing was precipitated by the the duly-elected Yanukovych government negotiating favorable loans with Russia after finding that the loan agreements with the IMF would destroy Ukraine.

Putin is no fool. He offered favorable terms to help encourage stronger ties with Ukraine. The IMF went b@tsh!t crazy and decided to overthrow the Yanukovych government (which had been, I repeat, recently legally elected to power).

Like I said...you should read a little bit of narrative from OUTSIDE of MSM sources. You know it is the principle ALL SMART people always use:
DON"T MAKE UP YOUR MIND UNTIL YOU HEAR BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY.
You seem like the kind of dude that is ready to convict BEFORE the defense even presents their case.

Look up Nuland, maidan, CIA and if you like...snipers (a more speculative topic)

Also google Ukraine and gold and taken.

Also look on You tube for bombing videos from donbass (eastern Ukraine) we are supporting war criminals from Kiev in order to enforce the policies of the IMF...yeah and look up IMF loans to Ukraine...the heart and soul of this whole sh!tshow.

Not that it matters but my colleague who I was most recently discussing this with is from Moskow and his wife is from Kiev. His wife likes me because I am half Ukrainian (3 generations American). Which makes me about as qualified on Putin as you are in climate science. Which is almost zero.

[Sgt Eddy Brewers]

Not that it matters but my colleague who I was most recently discussing this with is from Moskow and his wife is from Kiev. His wife likes me because I am half Ukrainian (3 generations American). Which makes me about as qualified on Putin as you are in climate science. Which is almost zero.

My point was that THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT attitudes within Ukraine and Crimea. Ask your friends which of the points I represented are incorrect.

Do you claim that the majority of citizens in Crimea and/or the donbass are upset because of Putin's "intervention" in their lands? All the actual direct evidence I have seen, because I try to hear from all sides, indicates that the vast majority of people in those specific locations really like Putin.

Those from Kiev mostly don't. That was my point.

As for your point about expertise.....

You can become informed on ANY topic, including Crimea and climate science by an ambitious, conscientious approach. I am virtually certain that I am better informed than the average college graduate who has taken some "environmental sciences" about many of the issues covered in those courses. My training was in Molecular Biology and Physical Chemistry (and especially the intersection of those topics) but I am wise enough to notice BS when it is laid in front of me. So are many Americans.... hence the selling of Global Warming/ Climate Change/ Climate Disruption? whatever....is not going very well.

In my experience of teaching college students and hearing their ideas about the world MOST students exitting a course have almost no depth of understanding beyond regurgitating the exact ideas presented to them. The capacity for ACTUAL CRITICAL EVALUATION of complex ideas escapes so many (especially from the most recent generation.) Bright people without "expertise" (many of them on this board) are often more insightful than dullards who have been brainwashed by activist professors.

Your attitude that it is preferable to BELIEVE those PRESENTED to you as experts is the attitude of a medieval peasant.

I am never certain I am correct on any of my contentions....I am merely presenting them so that other informed humans might rebut them and I will then be better informed. That had been what some of more agnostic posters have done on this thread and their input has been helpful to me but....Not much of this happening from the bedwetters. Just ad homs and invectives.

Oh well. Often you seem to be somewhat sane and constructive but at other times....not so much.

[Sgt Eddy Brewers]

I answered two pages back. And let me add (to clarify) Why did you restrict your fewer hurricanes to major Atlantic storms that hit the coast? Why not world wide? Is it because it fails to prove your point?

That is just a fun / high impact metric....which turned out as COUNTER to the bedwetters predictions.

I'm pretty sure no alarmists were frightening us with predictions that "NO major hurricanes would hit our country for more than a decade"....right!

But it turned out that way, no major hurracanes made landfall in the US since 2005, which any SANE person would admit that was not what promised when all the bedwatters were screaming about: Katrina, (actually only a Cat2) and STRONGER, MORE FREQUENT hurricanes.

To pretend that is a misrepresentation is comical.

So I guess picking this particular metric is "cherry-picking" in the bedwetter universe (even though it was a key component of the narrative) so you say "well what about global cyclonic activity?" Implying there was an increase in that metric which coincides with C)2 increase....
well thanks for bringing it up...

frequency_12months.png (119.85 KiB) Viewed 578 times

shocking increase right?

[Woodsrider]

Not that it matters but my colleague who I was most recently discussing this with is from Moskow and his wife is from Kiev. His wife likes me because I am half Ukrainian (3 generations American). Which makes me about as qualified on Putin as you are in climate science. Which is almost zero.

My point was that THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT attitudes within Ukraine and Crimea. Ask your friends which of the points I represented are incorrect.

Do you claim that the majority of citizens in Crimea and/or the donbass are upset because of Putin's "intervention" in their lands? All the actual direct evidence I have seen, because I try to hear from all sides, indicates that the vast majority of people in those specific locations really like Putin.

Those from Kiev mostly don't. That was my point.

As for your point about expertise.....

You can become informed on ANY topic, including Crimea and climate science by an ambitious, conscientious approach. I am virtually certain that I am better informed than the average college graduate who has taken some "environmental sciences" about many of the issues covered in those courses. My training was in Molecular Biology and Physical Chemistry (and especially the intersection of those topics) but I am wise enough to notice BS when it is laid in front of me. So are many Americans.... hence the selling of Global Warming/ Climate Change/ Climate Disruption? whatever....is not going very well.

In my experience of teaching college students and hearing their ideas about the world MOST students exitting a course have almost no depth of understanding beyond regurgitating the exact ideas presented to them. The capacity for ACTUAL CRITICAL EVALUATION of complex ideas escapes so many (especially from the most recent generation.) Bright people without "expertise" (many of them on this board) are often more insightful than dullards who have been brainwashed by activist professors.

Your attitude that it is preferable to BELIEVE those PRESENTED to you as experts is the attitude of a medieval peasant.

I am never certain I am correct on any of my contentions....I am merely presenting them so that other informed humans might rebut them and I will then be better informed. That had been what some of more agnostic posters have done on this thread and their input has been helpful to me but....Not much of this happening from the bedwetters. Just ad homs and invectives.

Oh well. Often you seem to be somewhat sane and constructive but at other times....not so much.

I understood your point. My point was you are a conspiracy theorist and like rooting for the bad guys. I was making an observation about you, not politics. I do appreciate, however, you clarifying why you are a conspiracy theorist. Clearly, your lack of trust in society and your affection for the antagonist is deeply rooted in your twisted conception of morality.

[Sgt Eddy Brewers]

I understood your point. My point was you are a conspiracy theorist and like rooting for the bad guys. I was making an observation about you, not politics. I do appreciate, however, you clarifying why you are a conspiracy theorist. Clearly, your lack of trust in society and your affection for the antagonist is deeply rooted in your twisted conception of morality.

If I could translate back into your native language:

"Baaaa Baaaa Ba Ba Baaaaa!"

[Streamtracker]

It's getting hot out there.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/cap ... ?tid=sm_fb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;