Re: More Muslim Violence
Posted: Dec 4th, '15, 11:31
Turns out that Costanza was a visionary.
Festivus parties are the solution.
Festivus parties are the solution.
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I'm sure I haven't read all Atomic's posts in this forum. I did read, and commented on, the post where he was urged to change the topic title. The topic in question is here:deadheadskier wrote:You are blindly ignorant regarding Atomic. He has made direct attacks on ALl Muslims numerous times, even going so far as to change thread titles when called on it.Mister Moose wrote:You're right, I know little about African Christian extremism. I also have no idea what the relevance of that is to what I said. I mentioned abortion clinics and the fact that reciting other religious zealots doesn't help in addressing the Jihadist problems. You countered with reciting even more examples of other extremism.deadheadskier wrote:Moose....
You obviously know very little about Christian extremism in Africa. I'd suggest you do a little reading. The Muslims don't have a monopoly on vile behavior.
There may not be "camps" here in the US, but there's plenty of violent rhetoric to be certain, which incites those on the fringe to do horrible things. That's called terrorism as well.
The problem is this - until society learns to accept all people (this goes for Christians, Jews, Muslims and anyone else) as one group - human beings - divisions are created, which produce breeding grounds of fear and anger. Too much of both creates violence. The way "Christians" like Atomic go after all Muslims until he's corrected only contributes to the problem. You can have a strong military response to terrorist threats while maintaining a level of decorum that doesn't make an entire group feel targeted.
Now if you want to diminish the Colorado Springs incident or "rank" it vs. Islamic extremism; go for it. Join the propaganda duped schills like Atomic1. Actually based on how easily you've been duped by Carli and that BS PP propaganda video you're already there. And regarding her, why don't you think about your cute little free speech comments in relation to her. Oh right.......
I'm more interested in addressing fanaticism in general and how to prevent any type of person from flying off the handle.
It's fall. Mice are getting into my house. When I go after them, I don't feel the need to acknowledge that other houses might have a squirrel problem, or a raccoon problem, or a skunk problem. I just deal with the issue at hand, ie the mouse problem. And I know not all mice get inside and chew up my insulation and wiring. Just some mice. I still call them mice. What you seem to be asking is for me to write "insulation eating mice" on my mousetraps, and in my mouse correspondence and discussions. Instead of just "mouse trap". I know not all mice try to chew my insulation. And the mice I see outside are cute and innocent. I don't have any ill feelings towards them. I just protect my house against the sect of mice that chew my insulation. But when I go the hardware store, I'm ok with saying "mouse trap". Does the hardware store guy think I'm going to kill all mice all over the State in a rodent vendetta? No, I'm pretty sure he knows that only mice that come inside my house are going to be exposed to mouse traps I buy. We don't need to have that conversation. Because most people don't hate mice, they just need to protect their house against the ones that come inside. There is no need to explain every time you buy a mouse trap that you don't hate all mice.
Why can't we assume the same thing about the world's religions when anyone refers to them?
I didn't see where Atomic said ALL Muslims. He said "Muslim problem". In case it has escaped your attention, we have a Muslim problem. And so do the Muslims.
And jeez, the rest of your diatribe is all based on stuff I didn't even say.
With respect to planned parenthood, I'll say it again. PP did sell and did solicit the sale of fetal organs for monetary compensation. The fact that the videos were edited DOES NOT change those facts that were depicted. I think it's a sad commentary on those who choose to turn a blind eye to that aspect of what was uncovered and documented. Prices were set for organs in bulk. So much for a liver. So much for a brain. Or are you maintaining that the price quotes were somehow doctored on the video tape?
And how does any of my free speech comments affect or relate to Carly Fiorina's ability to speak her opinion? You've completely lost me there.
deadheadskier wrote:You asked if Christian extremism has camps, beheadings etc....well they do in Africa. I answered your question and said check it out. What I didn't address in that initial inquiry of yours was your question regarding a desire to establish a religious nation state like ISIS does. Most of the Republican front runners want to do exactly that; adjust laws to reflect the teachings of the bible. We are a secular nation, Cruz, Carson, Rubio and crew should be completely eliminated from consideration for president. Their platforms are unconstitutional.
Yes, I did rank one form of extremism compared to another. Christian extremism produced far less violence and death in this country than Muslim extremism in the last 20 years. Resources need to be allocated to where the greatest threat is. That doesn't mean that other forms of extremism are somehow better, or that the crimes are diminished. It just means they are less of a threat currently.deadheadskier wrote: We don't have a "Muslim problem" any more than we have a "Christian problem."
We have an extremist problem in regards to both and I'm not surprised that isn't conceivable through your thick skull. This is where you and I differ. I admitted to the Muslim extremist problem with my very first statement to Atomic. You on the other hand rank and diminish other forms of extremism.
Refresh my memory on where they (PP) were acquitted. And that's quite a stretch to blame violence on one person's publicly stated convictions. And please, stop telling me what I think or say, when I have never, ever stated such an opinion. (Such as saying Obama has blood on his hands)deadheadskier wrote:The sale of body parts is illegal. PP was investigated for such and were acquitd of wrong doing. The republican task force leading the investigation admitted to liying about the facts surrounding the evidence. That witch hunt and the high level false accusations by public figures like your girl Carli is potentially responsible for driving one man over the edge and three people losing their lives in Colorado. Cons like you revel in saying Obama has blood on his hands whenever there's a tragedy. In this case the blood is on Carli's hands.
In the sense that Trump is selling a no nonsense hard line approach to several issues (Such as close the border with Mexico, period), yes, he is a mousetrap salesman. Good comparison. What Trump's rhetoric may or may not do with any activist group is pure conjecture. Is anyone's rhetoric responsible for 9/11? Please. No one is responsible for 9/11 other than the people who perpetrated it. To ascribe responsibility for murder to someone who merely voices an opinion, no matter how poorly thought out that opinion is, is a jump I can never make. Are you saying you ascribe that responsibility?deadheadskier wrote:Trump's rhetoric in the same manner may do the same with Muslim extremists.
But I suppose you think he's a mousetrap salesman........
* your entire argument is invalidated by this impropriety....you racist bigot homophobe...Mister Moose wrote:I'm sure I haven't read all Atomic's posts in this forum. I did read, and commented on, the post where he was urged to change the topic title. The topic in question is here:deadheadskier wrote:You are blindly ignorant regarding Atomic. He has made direct attacks on ALl Muslims numerous times, even going so far as to change thread titles when called on it.Mister Moose wrote:You're right, I know little about African Christian extremism. I also have no idea what the relevance of that is to what I said. I mentioned abortion clinics and the fact that reciting other religious zealots doesn't help in addressing the Jihadist problems. You countered with reciting even more examples of other extremism.deadheadskier wrote:Moose....
You obviously know very little about Christian extremism in Africa. I'd suggest you do a little reading. The Muslims don't have a monopoly on vile behavior.
There may not be "camps" here in the US, but there's plenty of violent rhetoric to be certain, which incites those on the fringe to do horrible things. That's called terrorism as well.
The problem is this - until society learns to accept all people (this goes for Christians, Jews, Muslims and anyone else) as one group - human beings - divisions are created, which produce breeding grounds of fear and anger. Too much of both creates violence. The way "Christians" like Atomic go after all Muslims until he's corrected only contributes to the problem. You can have a strong military response to terrorist threats while maintaining a level of decorum that doesn't make an entire group feel targeted.
Now if you want to diminish the Colorado Springs incident or "rank" it vs. Islamic extremism; go for it. Join the propaganda duped schills like Atomic1. Actually based on how easily you've been duped by Carli and that BS PP propaganda video you're already there. And regarding her, why don't you think about your cute little free speech comments in relation to her. Oh right.......
I'm more interested in addressing fanaticism in general and how to prevent any type of person from flying off the handle.
It's fall. Mice are getting into my house. When I go after them, I don't feel the need to acknowledge that other houses might have a squirrel problem, or a raccoon problem, or a skunk problem. I just deal with the issue at hand, ie the mouse problem. And I know not all mice get inside and chew up my insulation and wiring. Just some mice. I still call them mice. What you seem to be asking is for me to write "insulation eating mice" on my mousetraps, and in my mouse correspondence and discussions. Instead of just "mouse trap". I know not all mice try to chew my insulation. And the mice I see outside are cute and innocent. I don't have any ill feelings towards them. I just protect my house against the sect of mice that chew my insulation. But when I go the hardware store, I'm ok with saying "mouse trap". Does the hardware store guy think I'm going to kill all mice all over the State in a rodent vendetta? No, I'm pretty sure he knows that only mice that come inside my house are going to be exposed to mouse traps I buy. We don't need to have that conversation. Because most people don't hate mice, they just need to protect their house against the ones that come inside. There is no need to explain every time you buy a mouse trap that you don't hate all mice.
Why can't we assume the same thing about the world's religions when anyone refers to them?
I didn't see where Atomic said ALL Muslims. He said "Muslim problem". In case it has escaped your attention, we have a Muslim problem. And so do the Muslims.
And jeez, the rest of your diatribe is all based on stuff I didn't even say.
With respect to planned parenthood, I'll say it again. PP did sell and did solicit the sale of fetal organs for monetary compensation. The fact that the videos were edited DOES NOT change those facts that were depicted. I think it's a sad commentary on those who choose to turn a blind eye to that aspect of what was uncovered and documented. Prices were set for organs in bulk. So much for a liver. So much for a brain. Or are you maintaining that the price quotes were somehow doctored on the video tape?
And how does any of my free speech comments affect or relate to Carly Fiorina's ability to speak her opinion? You've completely lost me there.
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Atomic initially wrote Muslim Agenda, and later changed it to Muslim Extremist Agenda.
My comment was:
So it took two pages to come to the conclusion that Atomic's statement implies extremists to most of us without it being expressly stated, and Deadhead can't sleep at night until it is expressly stated.
I didn't then, and still don't don't think this was a "direct attack on all Muslims". The use of the word Caliphate in Atomic's quoted text clearly indicates this is a viewpoint of someone who believes in widespread growth of Muslim controlled nations. Atomic can be a bit of a bulldozer at times, and no, I don't agree with everything he says. But this thread does not prove your point that it is a direct attack on all Muslims.
deadheadskier wrote:You asked if Christian extremism has camps, beheadings etc....well they do in Africa. I answered your question and said check it out. What I didn't address in that initial inquiry of yours was your question regarding a desire to establish a religious nation state like ISIS does. Most of the Republican front runners want to do exactly that; adjust laws to reflect the teachings of the bible. We are a secular nation, Cruz, Carson, Rubio and crew should be completely eliminated from consideration for president. Their platforms are unconstitutional.
Please elaborate. Which parts of their platforms are unconstitutional?
Yes, I did rank one form of extremism compared to another. Christian extremism produced far less violence and death in this country than Muslim extremism in the last 20 years. Resources need to be allocated to where the greatest threat is. That doesn't mean that other forms of extremism are somehow better, or that the crimes are diminished. It just means they are less of a threat currently.deadheadskier wrote: We don't have a "Muslim problem" any more than we have a "Christian problem."
We have an extremist problem in regards to both and I'm not surprised that isn't conceivable through your thick skull. This is where you and I differ. I admitted to the Muslim extremist problem with my very first statement to Atomic. You on the other hand rank and diminish other forms of extremism.
Refresh my memory on where they (PP) were acquitted. And that's quite a stretch to blame violence on one person's publicly stated convictions. And please, stop telling me what I think or say, when I have never, ever stated such an opinion. (Such as saying Obama has blood on his hands)deadheadskier wrote:The sale of body parts is illegal. PP was investigated for such and were acquitd of wrong doing. The republican task force leading the investigation admitted to liying about the facts surrounding the evidence. That witch hunt and the high level false accusations by public figures like your girl Carli is potentially responsible for driving one man over the edge and three people losing their lives in Colorado. Cons like you revel in saying Obama has blood on his hands whenever there's a tragedy. In this case the blood is on Carli's hands.
In the sense that Trump is selling a no nonsense hard line approach to several issues (Such as close the border with Mexico, period), yes, he is a mousetrap salesman. Good comparison. What Trump's rhetoric may or may not do with any activist group is pure conjecture. Is anyone's rhetoric responsible for 9/11? Please. No one is responsible for 9/11 other than the people who perpetrated it. To ascribe responsibility for murder to someone who merely voices an opinion, not mater *how poorly thought out that opinion is, is a jump I can never make. Are you saying you ascribe that responsibility?deadheadskier wrote:Trump's rhetoric in the same manner may do the same with Muslim extremists.
But I suppose you think he's a mousetrap salesman........
Bubba wrote:The reluctance of the authorities to call this "terrorism" (so far) may stem from how the authorities define the word. They apparently have to have a specific motive (which they currently don't have confirmed) in order to officially term it terrorism.
yeah its also possible“It is possible this is terrorist related,” Obama said Thursday while speaking on the shooting. “We don’t know. It is also possible this was workplace related.”
Spot on, witnesses have said that Farook seemed angry the day of the shooting and that he was antisocial so there could have been a motive but it's probably too early to tell.Bubba wrote:The reluctance of the authorities to call this "terrorism" (so far) may stem from how the authorities define the word. They apparently have to have a specific motive (which they currently don't have confirmed) in order to officially term it terrorism.
ummmm NOthedev wrote:Spot on, witnesses have said that Farook seemed angry the day of the shooting and that he was antisocial so there could have been a motive but it's probably too early to tell.Bubba wrote:The reluctance of the authorities to call this "terrorism" (so far) may stem from how the authorities define the word. They apparently have to have a specific motive (which they currently don't have confirmed) in order to officially term it terrorism.
madhatter wrote:MUSLIM: "We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."
DEMOCRAT: "No you didn't."
MUSLIM:"Wait, what? Yes we did..."
DEMOCRAT: "No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."
MUSLIM: "WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."
DEMOCRAT: "No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."
MUSLIM: "Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being."
DEMOCRAT: "Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that's why you did this. We're sorry."
MUSLIM: "What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians - disenfranchisement doesn't even enter into it!"
DEMOCRAT: "Listen, it's our fault. We don't blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out."
MUSLIM: "Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we're not going to let you take it away from us."
DEMOCRAT: "No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame."
MUSLIM: "OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?""
madhatter wrote:MUSLIM: "We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."
DEMOCRAT: "No you didn't."
MUSLIM:"Wait, what? Yes we did..."
DEMOCRAT: "No, this has nothing to dho with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."
MUSLIM: "WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."
DEMOCRAT: "No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."
MUSLIM: "Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being."
DEMOCRAT: "Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that's why you did this. We're sorry."
MUSLIM: "What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians - disenfranchisement doesn't even enter into it!"
DEMOCRAT: "Listen, it's our fault. We don't blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out."
MUSLIM: "Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we're not going to let you take it away from us."
DEMOCRAT: "No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame."
MUSLIM: "OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?""
So by the above definition, it seems pretty clear the Planned Parenthood killings by Robert Dear - 3 dead, 9 wounded - should be deemed an act of domestic terrorism. Perhaps even radical Christian terrorism.freeski wrote:Obama:
Merriam-Webster:
"Terrorism: The use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal."
FBI:
International terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.*
"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.