Please don't idle your cars Killington employees

[SkiDork]

But how do you get heat in the tires for cornering? Maybe some heavy braking when you first start out...

[Mister Moose]

"We get in our car and we turn on the wipers, the blower, the radio (1), and pretty soon our alternator is going from temperatures of 20 degrees to 250 degrees (2)because it's starting to generate all of this electricity and trying to push it (3) into your battery that's still at 20 degrees and doesn't hold a charge (4)," Adler said. "You want a $300 to $400 alternator change?(5)"

This part is BS, doesn't lend a lot of credibility to the rest. However warming up the car to get the oil up to temp and the windshield defrosted does make sense.

OK...not claiming this establishes certainty for any issue...well beyond my expertise on this topic. Will look into it...any references to work from?

(1) The wipers, blower and radio are low current draws. This claim simply doesn't matter.

(2) The alternator case and rotor is a fair heat sink in the first 10 minutes. In addition, there is no way the current draw from those items will cause an alternator to heat to 250 degrees. Ever.

(3) The regulator is set between 14.1 and 14.4 volts, and the current to the battery is based on what the battery can absorb at that voltage and temperature. There is no extra work the alternator does to "push" due to the cold. While battery temp will limit available cranking current, it also will limit charging current. It doesn't "push" electricity any harder, or have to 'work' any harder because it is cold. Using the phrase "trying to push" in electricity tells me the author has no understanding of Ohm's law or how it applies to the internal resistance of batteries. The alternator doesn't know the temperature of the battery. It only provides the current required at a regulated voltage.

(4) A cold battery holds a charge just fine, only the chemical reaction is slowed due to the cold temperatures. Maximum current capacity is reduced, but the battery capacity remains the same. (You might not be able to deliver 200 amps for 5 seconds when cold, but the cold battery could deliver 2 amps for 500 seconds, the same amount of energy capacity)

The ability to hold a charge, or more clearly the condition where a battery loses its ability to hold a charge is caused by sulfation of the battery plates. This is a normal part of battery aging and is not related to temperature, it is related to number of discharge cycles and depth of discharge and elapsed time before recharge. The author doesn't understand battery capacity. See "Cold Cranking Amps", lead acid batteries.

(5) Premature alternator death usually results from over amping (new verb) and the resultant heat is what results in destruction of the rectifying diodes. This does not occur in this situation, in my slightly educated opinion. Charging current to bring back depletion after a normal engine start is a fairly rapid asymptotic decline. Diode failure is often seen when using an automotive alternator in large deep cycle battery banks or when a millennial puts a 4 channel 100W per channel stereo amplifier, plus a sub woofer, plus neon running board lights in his rice rocket. In both cases the alternator is driven for long periods of time at its rated output when it is designed for intermittent full output. The waste heat from the output of the alternator over 10 minutes (or ever, for that matter) in a stock unmodified car does not create enough heat to overheat the case or ever fry the diodes. And then there's the claim that 250 degrees will kill an alternator. Engine compartment temps routinely go nearly that high in enclosed engines (180 degree block plus exhaust manifold radiation) plus the heat generated by resistive losses in the alternator coils pushing the case temp well above 200. The other usual cause of alternator death is bearing failure. Scare tactics of a new alternator for $400 just for leaving your heater fan and radio on are just that, scare tactics.

So 5 uninformed statements tends to make me doubt his credibility.

You want references? I guess I would refer you to an Electrical Engineering text, the Surrette Battery website, a Delco customer service department, a high capacity alternator company like Balmar, a google search on temperature and current limits on diodes, the books by "The 12 Volt Doctor" https://www.amazon.com/Weems-Plath-Volt ... B000IMT0BU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and the owners manual of your car listing the fuse ratings of your radio and blower.

*Edited for clarity.

[Mister Moose]

Actually just looked into this and it seems pretty sane. Cold batteries lose charge No and are hard to recharge. No The more electrical load you put on the battery the more the alternator has to work to TRY to maintain charge. Completely wrong approach When alternators work too hard they are likely to fail. Not on an intermittent basis. They routinely go to full output on initial start up if the engine had to crank for a little while depleting all the surface charge They overheat trying to recharge cold dead batteries and this causes failure. There is nothing dead about a battery that is merely cold.
So idling your engine to warm the battery and make it easier to maintain/restore charge BEFORE you ask for lots of electrical tasks to be performed can probably decrease the stress on your alternator???? What? The alternator has to work the hardest immediately upon engine start to restore the charge lost by starting the engine, even with no accessories on. In the next 10 minutes I seriously doubt the battery has warmed to any measurably significant degree.


Which part of that is wrong? Actually asking not shrieking.

[Sgt Eddy Brewers]

Actually just looked into this and it seems pretty sane. Cold batteries lose charge No and are hard to recharge. No The more electrical load you put on the battery the more the alternator has to work to TRY to maintain charge. Completely wrong approach When alternators work too hard they are likely to fail. Not on an intermittent basis. They routinely go to full output on initial start up if the engine had to crank for a little while depleting all the surface charge They overheat trying to recharge cold dead batteries and this causes failure. There is nothing dead about a battery that is merely cold.
So idling your engine to warm the battery and make it easier to maintain/restore charge BEFORE you ask for lots of electrical tasks to be performed can probably decrease the stress on your alternator???? What? The alternator has to work the hardest immediately upon engine start to restore the charge lost by starting the engine, even with no accessories on. In the next 10 minutes I seriously doubt the battery has warmed to any measurably significant degree.


Which part of that is wrong? Actually asking not shrieking.

Thanks for the help. As I said this is not within my range of expertise... tried to represent the ideas I saw on the web. Not sure if the web info was faulty or I misunderstood it but....you really put in some fantastic effort to rehabilitate my deficiencies. I need to get some time set aside to really make an effort at better understanding on this...thanks for all the help.

Once again Kzone is a cool place to try and build a better understanding of the world.

[Humpty Dumpty]

Can we get back on topic and get killyfan fan to post a picture of her fabulous skiers ass? who gives a crap about batteries an alternater voltage.

I still think she's a fat broad, otherwise, if she was so proud of her tush, she'd let us take a look. You peeps have seen my bare ass while skiing.

[yiddle on da fiddle]

Actually just looked into this and it seems pretty sane. Cold batteries lose charge No and are hard to recharge. No The more electrical load you put on the battery the more the alternator has to work to TRY to maintain charge. Completely wrong approach When alternators work too hard they are likely to fail. Not on an intermittent basis. They routinely go to full output on initial start up if the engine had to crank for a little while depleting all the surface charge They overheat trying to recharge cold dead batteries and this causes failure. There is nothing dead about a battery that is merely cold.
So idling your engine to warm the battery and make it easier to maintain/restore charge BEFORE you ask for lots of electrical tasks to be performed can probably decrease the stress on your alternator???? What? The alternator has to work the hardest immediately upon engine start to restore the charge lost by starting the engine, even with no accessories on. In the next 10 minutes I seriously doubt the battery has warmed to any measurably significant degree.


Which part of that is wrong? Actually asking not shrieking.

Thanks for the help. As I said this is not within my range of expertise... tried to represent the ideas I saw on the web. Not sure if the web info was faulty or I misunderstood it but....you really put in some fantastic effort to rehabilitate my deficiencies. I need to get some time set aside to really make an effort at better understanding on this...thanks for all the help.

Once again Kzone is a cool place to try and build a better understanding of the world.

Well?...this IS my field of expertise , in fact.....and Moose is DEAD on with all salient points of alternator service......however...to circle the cavalry back around?....Squeallyfan is STILL a petulant ,yentah-like causehead. Cant help but snicker at the old ( albeit heinously wrong) spin.....about what do you say to a woman with two black eyes?...nuthin...I already TOLD the bitch TWICE.....

[Woodsrider]

Actually just looked into this and it seems pretty sane. Cold batteries lose charge No and are hard to recharge. No The more electrical load you put on the battery the more the alternator has to work to TRY to maintain charge. Completely wrong approach When alternators work too hard they are likely to fail. Not on an intermittent basis. They routinely go to full output on initial start up if the engine had to crank for a little while depleting all the surface charge They overheat trying to recharge cold dead batteries and this causes failure. There is nothing dead about a battery that is merely cold.
So idling your engine to warm the battery and make it easier to maintain/restore charge BEFORE you ask for lots of electrical tasks to be performed can probably decrease the stress on your alternator???? What? The alternator has to work the hardest immediately upon engine start to restore the charge lost by starting the engine, even with no accessories on. In the next 10 minutes I seriously doubt the battery has warmed to any measurably significant degree.


Which part of that is wrong? Actually asking not shrieking.

Thanks for the help. As I said this is not within my range of expertise... tried to represent the ideas I saw on the web. Not sure if the web info was faulty or I misunderstood it but....you really put in some fantastic effort to rehabilitate my deficiencies. I need to get some time set aside to really make an effort at better understanding on this...thanks for all the help.

Once again Kzone is a cool place to try and build a better understanding of the world.

Well?...this IS my field of expertise , in fact.....and Moose is DEAD on with all salient points of alternator service......however...to circle the cavalry back around?....Squeallyfan is STILL a petulant ,yentah-like causehead. Cant help but snicker at the old ( albeit heinously wrong) spin.....about what do you say to a woman with two black eyes?...nuthin...I already TOLD the bitch TWICE.....

I train my daughters in weapons and martial arts purely because of assholes like you. I bet your mother is proud.

[yiddle on da fiddle]

PROFOUNDLY!....so whats YOUR excuse?...

[yiddle on da fiddle]

...AND my beloved father....since you've the spineless audacity to weave parents into the fray.....will your well armed daughters be ringside when someone else called asshole...beats you like an old race horse?

[Woodsrider]

...AND my beloved father....since you've the spineless audacity to weave parents into the fray.....will your well armed daughters be ringside when someone else called asshole...beats you like an old race horse?

Bring it. As long as they saw me standing up for woman's rights, I have no problem taking a beating for it.

[Woodsrider]

PROFOUNDLY!....so whats YOUR excuse?...

Did you beat her into submission too?

[Sgt Eddy Brewers]

Getting pretty edgy on this thread....expecting Humpty soon?

[killyfan]

Sorry to be absent for a day or so, but I was too busy munching pow on Tuesday and working 14 hours between my two jobs and shoveling on Wednesday to get back to the computer. It was great. I know you all missed me <sarc> and I'm so glad to see that you were able to keep up the good work by attacking other people in my absence... <sarc>

1) My bare butt is only seen by my appreciative boyfriend - you weirdos will never get the pleasure of seeing it.

2) I wear size 4 pants - ask another female - they will confirm that's a small size that only goes on women will asses of generally appreciated dimensions. (See below.)

3) I never said we should all stop driving cars and walk and ride horses and buggies everywhere again. All I'm asking here is for people to realize that once they have driven their car somewhere, (e.g. from home or work to another point before getting to their Final Destination) that they please turn the effin engine off while they run inside to grab breakfast/coffee/milk for the home fridge/beer/wine/groceries etc...) whether it be winter OR summer. I certainly don't want people to drive their cars with the windows iced and fogged over. (Remember, I'm very into "safety.") My boyfriend is a huge man (6'3" 215) and he foggs up the inside of any vehicle in about 3 seconds after getting in on a cold day. I always encourage him to start driving as soon as the engine has idled down and turn the blower on before the engine is hot - and if in my car the A/C too. (Not possible in his truck.) Windows clear in about 15 seconds even with cold air blowing on it.

4) I get up very early to do secondary job BEFORE going to my primary job where I physically work. Secondary job involves typing to people who are not here in Killington. No need to harsh on me because of the hours that I keep. If I have time in-between jobs I get to dick around on the internet for about a half hour or so. Hence the "ungodly hours" of my posts. So the f what?

5) GB - I've been to a couple of those mountain towns and the BF has lived in them. We both appreciate those anti-idling laws and have commented to ourselves that we wish that the Town of Killington would adopt such a policy.

6) BB - I'm very against electric cars for the time being. Disposable cars with gigantic batteries that are a bane on the wilderness to produce (the batteries that is) don't seem to make sense in my mind. I'm not a dumb hippy... or a smart hippy, or a hippy wanna-be.

7) SEB - you're quoting a 2001 study - I've love to see a more current one on this topic. Not that I don't believe it was accurate in 2001, but vehicles have changed a lot since then as have fuel additives, I'm guessing. I'm open to any new research that points me in the current accurate direction here. If I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting it. Do it all the time. I have never replaced the alternator or battery on my vehicle (at 8k shy of 200k), so I have a feeling that your quoted study may not apply to all vehicles. Motor is still perfectly fine, and I never warm it up to get oil up to temp before driving it. My backwoods mechanic in Tyson who is a zen master of all things vehicles and guns (great guy to know!) tells me I'm doing the right thing, as have my other local mechanics. I also don't read the Washington Post... I can see from your posts you know WAAAY more that me (no sarc here) about engines. I'm not a mechanic, never claimed to be, so I've been speaking from personal experience. I would love to sit with you in person and have a beer while we discuss all of this and you can teach me more about alternators. (Not kidding. Not being sarcastic.) I always like to make informed decisions - and you clearly can help me with this. MM, I think you should come too. I will bring boyfriend along for personal protection.

[yiddle on da fiddle]

is is just me?....or this stuff the epitome of....ANTI-Viagra?.....and I thought drones were just something that flew around aimlessly....

[yiddle on da fiddle]

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