5.7 Million Capital Expenditures for 2018

[Highway Star]

Pretty good article here on how Efficiency Vermont works with respect to the Snow Gun exchange:
http://digital.vpr.net/post/snow-gun-ex ... ons#stream

Here's the key part with respect to how the program works:

Funding for the program comes from the surcharge utility customers in the state pay to support Efficiency Vermont. While some may balk at having to subsidize snowmaking upgrades for private ski resorts, Jim Merriam said the energy savings will benefit everyone, since we all share the same power grid. “So, at any point in time that we can bring down the overall system load, everyone benefits because we don’t need to build infrastructure either in the form of generating new electricity or more electricity or we don’t have to upgrade the equipment that’s there,” he said.

As to what happens to all those obsolete snow guns, Merriam says they’ll be collected and scrapped by Casella Waste Management and the proceeds donated to the Vermont Ski Areas Association’s Learn to Ski and Ride programs.

Back in 2014 (when the article was written) the resorts had to turn in 4 older less efficient snow guns for every 5 new ones they purchase. The rebates per snow gun vary from varied from $500 up to $4,000. It might all be different now; or not.

Now the precise sentence used in the recent press release is: "In total, Killington Resort will earmark $1.7 million in snowmaking improvements and upgrades for 2018.". Normally the phrase used would be "earmark $ for" not "earmark $ in", but ignoring that bit of grammatical sloppiness, generally that usage means funds are designated for a particular purpose. It does not mean that Killington and Efficiency Vermont are spending $1.7 million together. It's just Killington, and its not about the "value" of what's purchased. I'll further point out that this language is far less murky about that issue than the language they used back in 2014 (as I pointed out at the time, see HS quote). This is phrased differently and is pretty unequivocal.

Now the reason that "for" versus "in" phrasing matters is that generally someone comes along and word smiths these documents. So it is possible that the sentence started out as "In total, Killington Resort will make $1.7 million in snowmaking improvements...", and they said, "change 'make' to 'earmark', it sounds better", perhaps not realizing that in this context it actually changes the meaning. If it was originally "make" then the 1.7 million could refer to the total value (as Highway Star suggests), not what was actually spent by Killington. However, in the end, does it really matter? They are putting in 163 new towers, focus on that!

Highway Star's head just exploded.

Nah, Rogman's analysis is reasonable. I'm just pointing out that they have a long history of blatantly inflating their capital expenditure numbers.

[Killington Resort]

I thought I would clarify a few things without getting into a lot of back and forth:

1) In general Rogman's estimates are pretty close for our capital spend, without publishing the detail.
2) Lifts - we continue to spend a lot of money (the amount in the release does not include anything for Southridge). We invest continually in lifts and just because a lift is 20+ years old does not mean we will take it down and replace it. While we plan to replace Snowdon, a lift like Superstar won't be replaced but all the components are replaced on a rotation plan so over a course of several years these lifts are "refurbished". Like a house, people don't knock it down if it needs a new roof or a new boiler, they replace those items - this is the same for lifts.
3) Efficiency VT rebates are much less than the "snow gun round up" year that was referenced and when taken over the entire snowmaking investment the percentage is in the low 20% range.
4) Summer revenue has increased 250% over the past 5 years, mountain bike visits are 11 times as much as 5 years ago. Mountain bike season passes grew from 75 per year to 750 this past year. This is becoming a real business for us, clearly not at the level of skiing but very important for our future.

Hope this helps clarify a few items - (probably will just create more debate)

Mike

[madhatter]

I thought I would clarify a few things without getting into a lot of back and forth:

1) In general Rogman's estimates are pretty close for our capital spend, without publishing the detail.
2) Lifts - we continue to spend a lot of money (the amount in the release does not include anything for Southridge). We invest continually in lifts and just because a lift is 20+ years old does not mean we will take it down and replace it. While we plan to replace Snowdon, a lift like Superstar won't be replaced but all the components are replaced on a rotation plan so over a course of several years these lifts are "refurbished". Like a house, people don't knock it down if it needs a new roof or a new boiler, they replace those items - this is the same for lifts.
3) Efficiency VT rebates are much less than the "snow gun round up" year that was referenced and when taken over the entire snowmaking investment the percentage is in the low 20% range.
4) Summer revenue has increased 250% over the past 5 years, mountain bike visits are 11 times as much as 5 years ago. Mountain bike season passes grew from 75 per year to 750 this past year. This is becoming a real business for us, clearly not at the level of skiing but very important for our future.

Hope this helps clarify a few items - (probably will just create more debate)

Mike

anyone who visits during the summer months knows the value of the summer program...It's really been great for both patrons and the hill...

[daytripper]

I thought I would clarify a few things without getting into a lot of back and forth:

1) In general Rogman's estimates are pretty close for our capital spend, without publishing the detail.
2) Lifts - we continue to spend a lot of money (the amount in the release does not include anything for Southridge). We invest continually in lifts and just because a lift is 20+ years old does not mean we will take it down and replace it. While we plan to replace Snowdon, a lift like Superstar won't be replaced but all the components are replaced on a rotation plan so over a course of several years these lifts are "refurbished". Like a house, people don't knock it down if it needs a new roof or a new boiler, they replace those items - this is the same for lifts.
3) Efficiency VT rebates are much less than the "snow gun round up" year that was referenced and when taken over the entire snowmaking investment the percentage is in the low 20% range.
4) Summer revenue has increased 250% over the past 5 years, mountain bike visits are 11 times as much as 5 years ago. Mountain bike season passes grew from 75 per year to 750 this past year. This is becoming a real business for us, clearly not at the level of skiing but very important for our future.

Hope this helps clarify a few items - (probably will just create more debate)

Mike

anyone who visits during the summer months knows the value of the summer program...It's really been great for both patrons and the hill...

And the town

[throbster]

I thought I would clarify a few things without getting into a lot of back and forth:

1) In general Rogman's estimates are pretty close for our capital spend, without publishing the detail.
2) Lifts - we continue to spend a lot of money (the amount in the release does not include anything for Southridge). We invest continually in lifts and just because a lift is 20+ years old does not mean we will take it down and replace it. While we plan to replace Snowdon, a lift like Superstar won't be replaced but all the components are replaced on a rotation plan so over a course of several years these lifts are "refurbished". Like a house, people don't knock it down if it needs a new roof or a new boiler, they replace those items - this is the same for lifts.
3) Efficiency VT rebates are much less than the "snow gun round up" year that was referenced and when taken over the entire snowmaking investment the percentage is in the low 20% range.
4) Summer revenue has increased 250% over the past 5 years, mountain bike visits are 11 times as much as 5 years ago. Mountain bike season passes grew from 75 per year to 750 this past year. This is becoming a real business for us, clearly not at the level of skiing but very important for our future.

Hope this helps clarify a few items - (probably will just create more debate)

Mike

When?

[Highway Star]

Don't believe the "Bikes are better now! They make it safe! Trust us!!!" meme. A good, well set up DH race bike from 2002 is better on DH trails than the average 5" trail bike or 6" enduro bike. Sure, bikes are somewhat better. But the biggest safety issue is that the average trail bike isn't running super soft DH compound tires (42a ST, Maxxgrip, etc), which make a huge difference.

Modern enduro and all mountain bikes are perfectly fine for the newer Killington flow trails. It's only when you get to the black and double black tech trails that enduro bikes start to get sketchy, and even then a skilled rider can handle it.

Modern enduro bikes are very similar to 10 year old DH bikes. It's not about the tires, although most enduro bikes now come with DH specific tires (e.g. mine came with Maxxis Minion DHFs). It's about frame geometry - newer enduro bikes have slack head tube angles and wider wheelbases like DH bikes. That's what makes them safer and more capable. And FYI the Pike is not really an enduro fork and it's kind of crap for DH. The lyric is Rockshox enduro specific fork, and most enduro bikes will spec it.

In any event I've taken numerous people to Killington and they've ridden all the flow trails just fine on their enduro/all mountain bikes. Killington's DH ridership seems to have grown tremendously since they've invested in it and built trails appropriate for intermediate and beginner riders. I see it as a positive for the community and the mountain, and if you came up at all during the summer you had to notice that it was far busier than it has ever been during the summer season.

Nah, I'm still not buying this. If you look at geometry figures for DH bikes of the mid-00's, you'll see a lot of 65 degree head angles, high bottom brackets and somewhat short wheelbases and reaches compared to modern standards. This doesn't tell the whole story. Many many people were doing bike setup tricks to drop the bottom bracket and slacken the head angle, such as running a shorter shock, using offset shock bushings, slacker dropouts, drop crowns, angle headsets, etc. They were all 26" too, so that's automatically one less inch you need on the wheelbase for chainstay length and toe overlap vs. a 650b bike. All these people running all these mods is eventually what drove the industry to make bikes lower, slacker, and eventually longer. You also have to consider DH courses were more technical, slower, and had tighter turns than they do today.

I'm happy you have DHF's, but there's a massive difference between a 2.3 DHF EXO Dual Compound, and a proper DH spec 2.5 DHF Super tacky 2-ply. Also, the Pike is definitely an Enduro / All Mountain fork that is light enough for trail riding. The Lyric is an enduro, bike park and light freeride fork.

I could build up a DH/Park bike exclusively using a frame and parts from 2003 to 2007, it would smoke the average trail/enduro bike at Killington. I actually have all the parts to do it, I just need to get around to it.

[Highway Star]

I thought I would clarify a few things without getting into a lot of back and forth:

1) In general Rogman's estimates are pretty close for our capital spend, without publishing the detail.
2) Lifts - we continue to spend a lot of money (the amount in the release does not include anything for Southridge). We invest continually in lifts and just because a lift is 20+ years old does not mean we will take it down and replace it. While we plan to replace Snowdon, a lift like Superstar won't be replaced but all the components are replaced on a rotation plan so over a course of several years these lifts are "refurbished". Like a house, people don't knock it down if it needs a new roof or a new boiler, they replace those items - this is the same for lifts.
3) Efficiency VT rebates are much less than the "snow gun round up" year that was referenced and when taken over the entire snowmaking investment the percentage is in the low 20% range.
4) Summer revenue has increased 250% over the past 5 years, mountain bike visits are 11 times as much as 5 years ago. Mountain bike season passes grew from 75 per year to 750 this past year. This is becoming a real business for us, clearly not at the level of skiing but very important for our future.

Hope this helps clarify a few items - (probably will just create more debate)

Mike

When?

2035.

[madhatter]

Don't believe the "Bikes are better now! They make it safe! Trust us!!!" meme. A good, well set up DH race bike from 2002 is better on DH trails than the average 5" trail bike or 6" enduro bike. Sure, bikes are somewhat better. But the biggest safety issue is that the average trail bike isn't running super soft DH compound tires (42a ST, Maxxgrip, etc), which make a huge difference.

Modern enduro and all mountain bikes are perfectly fine for the newer Killington flow trails. It's only when you get to the black and double black tech trails that enduro bikes start to get sketchy, and even then a skilled rider can handle it.

Modern enduro bikes are very similar to 10 year old DH bikes. It's not about the tires, although most enduro bikes now come with DH specific tires (e.g. mine came with Maxxis Minion DHFs). It's about frame geometry - newer enduro bikes have slack head tube angles and wider wheelbases like DH bikes. That's what makes them safer and more capable. And FYI the Pike is not really an enduro fork and it's kind of crap for DH. The lyric is Rockshox enduro specific fork, and most enduro bikes will spec it.

In any event I've taken numerous people to Killington and they've ridden all the flow trails just fine on their enduro/all mountain bikes. Killington's DH ridership seems to have grown tremendously since they've invested in it and built trails appropriate for intermediate and beginner riders. I see it as a positive for the community and the mountain, and if you came up at all during the summer you had to notice that it was far busier than it has ever been during the summer season.

Nah, I'm still not buying this. If you look at geometry figures for DH bikes of the mid-00's, you'll see a lot of 65 degree head angles, high bottom brackets and somewhat short wheelbases and reaches compared to modern standards. This doesn't tell the whole story. Many many people were doing bike setup tricks to drop the bottom bracket and slacken the head angle, such as running a shorter shock, using offset shock bushings, slacker dropouts, drop crowns, angle headsets, etc. They were all 26" too, so that's automatically one less inch you need on the wheelbase for chainstay length and toe overlap vs. a 650b bike. All these people running all these mods is eventually what drove the industry to make bikes lower, slacker, and eventually longer. You also have to consider DH courses were more technical, slower, and had tighter turns than they do today.

I'm happy you have DHF's, but there's a massive difference between a 2.3 DHF EXO Dual Compound, and a proper DH spec 2.5 DHF Super tacky 2-ply.

I could build up a DH/Park bike exclusively using a frame and parts from 2003 to 2007, it would smoke the average trail/enduro bike at Killington. I actually have all the parts to do it, I just need to get around to it.

If you stick enough caveats in there perhaps, but that enduro bike also goes uphill pretty well too...for the "one bike" rider the newer bikes are far superior...but hey you still think 203's and 4 inch riser plates are trick too...

[biged]

Don't believe the "Bikes are better now! They make it safe! Trust us!!!" meme. A good, well set up DH race bike from 2002 is better on DH trails than the average 5" trail bike or 6" enduro bike. Sure, bikes are somewhat better. But the biggest safety issue is that the average trail bike isn't running super soft DH compound tires (42a ST, Maxxgrip, etc), which make a huge difference.

Modern enduro and all mountain bikes are perfectly fine for the newer Killington flow trails. It's only when you get to the black and double black tech trails that enduro bikes start to get sketchy, and even then a skilled rider can handle it.

Modern enduro bikes are very similar to 10 year old DH bikes. It's not about the tires, although most enduro bikes now come with DH specific tires (e.g. mine came with Maxxis Minion DHFs). It's about frame geometry - newer enduro bikes have slack head tube angles and wider wheelbases like DH bikes. That's what makes them safer and more capable. And FYI the Pike is not really an enduro fork and it's kind of crap for DH. The lyric is Rockshox enduro specific fork, and most enduro bikes will spec it.

In any event I've taken numerous people to Killington and they've ridden all the flow trails just fine on their enduro/all mountain bikes. Killington's DH ridership seems to have grown tremendously since they've invested in it and built trails appropriate for intermediate and beginner riders. I see it as a positive for the community and the mountain, and if you came up at all during the summer you had to notice that it was far busier than it has ever been during the summer season.

Nah, I'm still not buying this. If you look at geometry figures for DH bikes of the mid-00's, you'll see a lot of 65 degree head angles, high bottom brackets and somewhat short wheelbases and reaches compared to modern standards. This doesn't tell the whole story. Many many people were doing bike setup tricks to drop the bottom bracket and slacken the head angle, such as running a shorter shock, using offset shock bushings, slacker dropouts, drop crowns, angle headsets, etc. They were all 26" too, so that's automatically one less inch you need on the wheelbase for chainstay length and toe overlap vs. a 650b bike. All these people running all these mods is eventually what drove the industry to make bikes lower, slacker, and eventually longer. You also have to consider DH courses were more technical, slower, and had tighter turns than they do today.

I'm happy you have DHF's, but there's a massive difference between a 2.3 DHF EXO Dual Compound, and a proper DH spec 2.5 DHF Super tacky 2-ply.

I could build up a DH/Park bike exclusively using a frame and parts from 2003 to 2007, it would smoke the average trail/enduro bike at Killington. I actually have all the parts to do it, I just need to get around to it.

If you stick enough caveats in there perhaps, but that enduro bike also goes uphill pretty well too...for the "one bike" rider the newer bikes are far superior...but hey you still think 203's and 4 inch riser plates are trick too...

Bikes have improved but I think the skill set of the rider has more to do with it.
I vote for this person to test your new bike.
https://youtu.be/VfjjiHGuHoc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Highway Star]

Don't believe the "Bikes are better now! They make it safe! Trust us!!!" meme. A good, well set up DH race bike from 2002 is better on DH trails than the average 5" trail bike or 6" enduro bike. Sure, bikes are somewhat better. But the biggest safety issue is that the average trail bike isn't running super soft DH compound tires (42a ST, Maxxgrip, etc), which make a huge difference.

Modern enduro and all mountain bikes are perfectly fine for the newer Killington flow trails. It's only when you get to the black and double black tech trails that enduro bikes start to get sketchy, and even then a skilled rider can handle it.

Modern enduro bikes are very similar to 10 year old DH bikes. It's not about the tires, although most enduro bikes now come with DH specific tires (e.g. mine came with Maxxis Minion DHFs). It's about frame geometry - newer enduro bikes have slack head tube angles and wider wheelbases like DH bikes. That's what makes them safer and more capable. And FYI the Pike is not really an enduro fork and it's kind of crap for DH. The lyric is Rockshox enduro specific fork, and most enduro bikes will spec it.

In any event I've taken numerous people to Killington and they've ridden all the flow trails just fine on their enduro/all mountain bikes. Killington's DH ridership seems to have grown tremendously since they've invested in it and built trails appropriate for intermediate and beginner riders. I see it as a positive for the community and the mountain, and if you came up at all during the summer you had to notice that it was far busier than it has ever been during the summer season.

Nah, I'm still not buying this. If you look at geometry figures for DH bikes of the mid-00's, you'll see a lot of 65 degree head angles, high bottom brackets and somewhat short wheelbases and reaches compared to modern standards. This doesn't tell the whole story. Many many people were doing bike setup tricks to drop the bottom bracket and slacken the head angle, such as running a shorter shock, using offset shock bushings, slacker dropouts, drop crowns, angle headsets, etc. They were all 26" too, so that's automatically one less inch you need on the wheelbase for chainstay length and toe overlap vs. a 650b bike. All these people running all these mods is eventually what drove the industry to make bikes lower, slacker, and eventually longer. You also have to consider DH courses were more technical, slower, and had tighter turns than they do today.

I'm happy you have DHF's, but there's a massive difference between a 2.3 DHF EXO Dual Compound, and a proper DH spec 2.5 DHF Super tacky 2-ply.

I could build up a DH/Park bike exclusively using a frame and parts from 2003 to 2007, it would smoke the average trail/enduro bike at Killington. I actually have all the parts to do it, I just need to get around to it.

If you stick enough caveats in there perhaps, but that enduro bike also goes uphill pretty well too...for the "one bike" rider the newer bikes are far superior...but hey you still think 203's and 4 inch riser plates are trick too...

I trail ride on a high end, modern enduro bike. But I don't give a sh*t about coming to Killington to ride bike park, and if I did, I'd rather flog a park bike than thrash my good enduro bike.

Keep in mind I said *average enduro/trail bike*. I'm not talking about something like the new nomad or whatever with a pro setup for enduro racing, which is obviously far more capable.

[madhatter]

Don't believe the "Bikes are better now! They make it safe! Trust us!!!" meme. A good, well set up DH race bike from 2002 is better on DH trails than the average 5" trail bike or 6" enduro bike. Sure, bikes are somewhat better. But the biggest safety issue is that the average trail bike isn't running super soft DH compound tires (42a ST, Maxxgrip, etc), which make a huge difference.

Modern enduro and all mountain bikes are perfectly fine for the newer Killington flow trails. It's only when you get to the black and double black tech trails that enduro bikes start to get sketchy, and even then a skilled rider can handle it.

Modern enduro bikes are very similar to 10 year old DH bikes. It's not about the tires, although most enduro bikes now come with DH specific tires (e.g. mine came with Maxxis Minion DHFs). It's about frame geometry - newer enduro bikes have slack head tube angles and wider wheelbases like DH bikes. That's what makes them safer and more capable. And FYI the Pike is not really an enduro fork and it's kind of crap for DH. The lyric is Rockshox enduro specific fork, and most enduro bikes will spec it.

In any event I've taken numerous people to Killington and they've ridden all the flow trails just fine on their enduro/all mountain bikes. Killington's DH ridership seems to have grown tremendously since they've invested in it and built trails appropriate for intermediate and beginner riders. I see it as a positive for the community and the mountain, and if you came up at all during the summer you had to notice that it was far busier than it has ever been during the summer season.

Nah, I'm still not buying this. If you look at geometry figures for DH bikes of the mid-00's, you'll see a lot of 65 degree head angles, high bottom brackets and somewhat short wheelbases and reaches compared to modern standards. This doesn't tell the whole story. Many many people were doing bike setup tricks to drop the bottom bracket and slacken the head angle, such as running a shorter shock, using offset shock bushings, slacker dropouts, drop crowns, angle headsets, etc. They were all 26" too, so that's automatically one less inch you need on the wheelbase for chainstay length and toe overlap vs. a 650b bike. All these people running all these mods is eventually what drove the industry to make bikes lower, slacker, and eventually longer. You also have to consider DH courses were more technical, slower, and had tighter turns than they do today.

I'm happy you have DHF's, but there's a massive difference between a 2.3 DHF EXO Dual Compound, and a proper DH spec 2.5 DHF Super tacky 2-ply.

I could build up a DH/Park bike exclusively using a frame and parts from 2003 to 2007, it would smoke the average trail/enduro bike at Killington. I actually have all the parts to do it, I just need to get around to it.

If you stick enough caveats in there perhaps, but that enduro bike also goes uphill pretty well too...for the "one bike" rider the newer bikes are far superior...but hey you still think 203's and 4 inch riser plates are trick too...

I trail ride on a high end, modern enduro bike. But I don't give a sh*t about coming to Killington to ride bike park, and if I did, I'd rather flog a park bike than thrash my good enduro bike.

whatever...you really should try to not be so miserable...bring yer bike up and ride K some day...ya ain't gonna hurt yer bike...still got a free ticket for ya...

[ANGUS]

Any spending is good spending. Important little things get done. Most don't notice. I like the new vestibule and doors at Peak. It's not a shiny new lift but makes my time at Killington a little nicer. The old doors sucked in the wind. Like any business. A lot happens behind the scenes that contribute to a more positive customer experience.

[Sergio2232]

IM NOT ASSOCIATED WITH ANY OTHER USERNAMES ON THIS FORUM. THIS FORUM IS PATHETIC.

[SnoBrdr]

IM NOT ASSOCIATED WITH ANY OTHER USERNAMES ON THIS FORUM. THIS FORUM IS PATHETIC.

Yet you still post here.

[daytripper]

IM NOT ASSOCIATED WITH ANY OTHER USERNAMES ON THIS FORUM. THIS FORUM IS PATHETIC.

Said by the tool who keeps posting here....go away tool!!