KillingtonZone.com

Stumbled across this one! Back when Killington actually had good management and new lifts.

Video is from 2001.

Back then was the height of the Les Otten/ASC bubble as he built dozens of lifts across his ski areas in the years prior. Then it became all about real estate and not really about the skiing which was the beginning of the end for him, his company, and his reputation. His solution to everything was to spend his way out of whatever problems arose and he ran up huge debts. By around 2006 he realized this wasn't such a good idea and it all came crashing down in the following years. He still walked out of the whole thing so rich that he became part owner of the Boston Red Sox.

Unfortunately Killington and the rest of the ski areas he ran will be stuck picking up the mess he made for years to come. Some of the ski areas need lift investment, like Killington and Sugarloaf. Others needed investment in snowmaking like Mount Snow and Attitash. The eastern half of The Canyons is a huge mess of different land plots owned by differnet people when it was carved up for real estate which makes it really hard to build lifts and add trails and even Vail won't be able to completely fix it.

snoloco wrote:Video is from 2001.

Back then was the height of the Les Otten/ASC bubble as he built dozens of lifts across his ski areas in the years prior. Then it became all about real estate and not really about the skiing which was the beginning of the end for him, his company, and his reputation. His solution to everything was to spend his way out of whatever problems arose and he ran up huge debts. By around 2006 he realized this wasn't such a good idea and it all came crashing down in the following years. He still walked out of the whole thing so rich that he became part owner of the Boston Red Sox.

Unfortunately Killington and the rest of the ski areas he ran will be stuck picking up the mess he made for years to come. Some of the ski areas need lift investment, like Killington and Sugarloaf. Others needed investment in snowmaking like Mount Snow and Attitash. The eastern half of The Canyons is a huge mess of different land plots owned by differnet people when it was carved up for real estate which makes it really hard to build lifts and add trails and even Vail won't be able to completely fix it.

Do some research on what actually happened. You're just repeating incorrect hearsay.

Regardless, in 2001, Killington did infact have good management and several new-ish lifts.

The general consensus in the ski industry about Les Often is exactly that.

He did build a few lifts at Killington. K1, Ramshead, Needles, and Northbrook. However he also closed Sunrise and then failed to build the interconnect which was supposed to replace it. After 1997 there was zero investment in Killington until 2008 when Powdr built the Skye Peak Express.

snoloco wrote:Video is from 2001.

Back then was the height of the Les Otten/ASC bubble as he built dozens of lifts across his ski areas in the years prior. Then it became all about real estate and not really about the skiing which was the beginning of the end for him, his company, and his reputation. His solution to everything was to spend his way out of whatever problems arose and he ran up huge debts. By around 2006 he realized this wasn't such a good idea and it all came crashing down in the following years. He still walked out of the whole thing so rich that he became part owner of the Boston Red Sox.

Unfortunately Killington and the rest of the ski areas he ran will be stuck picking up the mess he made for years to come. Some of the ski areas need lift investment, like Killington and Sugarloaf. Others needed investment in snowmaking like Mount Snow and Attitash. The eastern half of The Canyons is a huge mess of different land plots owned by differnet people when it was carved up for real estate which makes it really hard to build lifts and add trails and even Vail won't be able to completely fix it.

stuck? didn't they purchase or otherwise willfully acquire these areas?

snoloco wrote:The general consensus in the ski industry about Les Often is exactly that.

No, its not. You're pulling hearsay out of your ass. There is WELL DOCUMENTED HISTORY available about how the ASC/Otten debacle went down.

We need to keep the big picture in mind about Rotten Otten and POWDR. IMHO, Otten overextended by purchasing so many areas and accumulating huge debt. Made key K decisions like the Sunrise land swap which resulted in: nothing for the customer. No interconnect, no lifts, no lodges. When he got into deep financial trouble, he sold the lower elevation lands plus Snowshed/Rams Head lodges and parking lots to SP Land, who purposed all that for a village. ASC needed cash to pay off debt, no investment or even minimal maintenance at K. Then the economy sank deep, the SP Land business plan for K went into hiatus since the buildout would have stressed them out for more capital at a time when their investor base was already taking big hits. And anything built out would have realized far far less than first planned because projected prices were far below initial planning.

Then comes POWDR, who got in with a 30% stake of the future village and an unstated need to fix aging infrastructure and re-invest in lifts, lodges.

-Replaced one quad with a nicer one. Net gain of zero.
-Removed Devils Fiddle chair. Net loss of one quad.
-Removed South Ridge chair. Net loss of one triple.
-Added more Magic Carpets at Snowshed & Rams Head. They call it adding lifts. I call it net gain of zero.
-Cut services, laid off a lot of full timers, limited operational hours, raised prices, shortened season, stopped recovering from wet events.

Up to this point, all the above plus economic and weather factors resulted in a huge loss of annual customer visits.

At various times we witnessed big lift investments in their other properties, sale of some of them, and nothing of substance at K except replacing an existing lodge and an existing quad. Customers view substance as ADDITIONAL NEW lifts, ADDITIONAL NEW lodges, ease of access, anything that improves their guest experience. Smiling parking attendants and lefties is not an improvement, it is standard expectations that was missing. Yes, everyone appreciates a better quad and a better peak lodge. But they already had infrastructure there.

-added the Stairway to Heaven. Operational improvement for early season. Net gain of operational ability for small % of customer base, but important.
-started fixing aging infrastructure like lots of rusty pipes, but lift ops still stink to this day on K1, Skyeship, Snowdon quad and triple despite claims of investments and fixes.
-added on to KBL past Mahogany Ridge, that Irene washed away. Now there are Umbrella Bars at KBL and Snowshed. Lost all weather lodge space, gained fair weather space.
-Replaced the peak lodge with another nicer lodge. Net gain of zero but a plus in performance. Had to be done due to poor structural integrity.
-starting to improve summer activities. Far less investment required, far more potential uptick since they were at rock bottom. Overall a plus to the non-winter users.

Overall I see a positive shift over the last few seasons, which keeps me optimistic for meaningful improvements in lifts & lodges. Too bad the spectre of the village project seems to be killing my hopes to see meaningful upgrades any time soon. And if the World Cup truly does lose money for K as they have stated, then there is even less capital available for customer satisfaction and growth. POWDR thinks the World Cup event will grow the K brand and reputation. I tend to agree, based on the 2X success. But what POWDR fails to appreciate is the effect on the customer base when they come to K on any given weekend with the family and experience:

-Crummy parking experiences (except for Bear, Skyeship).
-K1 and Skyeship stopping often on dry, calm, sunny days
-Snowdon quad and triple - 'nuff said on those constant embarrassments.
-jam packed lodges, low end buildings/services/facilities
-lifts sitting unmanned at times, either broke down or lack of human resources

Will they say to themselves - "gee, that World Cup event must have been nice."
Or will they say to themselves and friends/coworkers on Monday morning: "Gee, what a craphole. We're going back to XYZ, or going to try ABC next time".

da Pimp wrote: -Added more Magic Carpets at Snowshed & Rams Head. They call it adding lifts. I call it net gain of zero.

Yeah, wasn't there a rope tows at Ramshead and Bear/Superpipe and possibly Snowshed that were removed when the carpets went in?

And the next chapter of the story will be the Bear Base condos/improvements/lift upgrade e.c.t.

Still questioning why they dumped so much time and money into the Snowdon Triple over the past 2-3 years, unless it had something to do with having the mid-station Grandfathered in, because there was one there at one point in time, and if they'd be able to put another one in there if they installed a completely new lift.

Yes, I am a bit skeptical about actually getting a new lift in South Ridge next year. Maybe K is planning on using funds collected from sale or use of the affected land in order to justify spending on that chair? If the project delays, will the chair delay? That would be a big negative in the marketplace. All printed info on that chair to date uses the word "planned".

On the positive side - there could be a plan being set up that will get the Snowdon quad sent over to South Ridge and a new HSQ installed at Snowdon. Just not ready to advertise it yet.

Oops, I woke up and realize it was just a wet dream.

da Pimp wrote:Yes, I am a bit skeptical about actually getting a new lift in South Ridge next year. Maybe K is planning on using funds collected from sale or use of the affected land in order to justify spending on that chair? If the project delays, will the chair delay? That would be a big negative in the marketplace. All printed info on that chair to date uses the word "planned".

On the positive side - there could be a plan being set up that will get the Snowdon quad sent over to South Ridge and a new HSQ installed at Snowdon. Just not ready to advertise it yet.

Oops, I woke up and realize it was just a wet dream.

I am NOT holding my breath for the South Ridge lift or any condos.

I'm not either. It's a shame Powdr won't invest in the skiing at Killington. This will be the 7th season with no South Ridge lift. The Skye Peak Express has basically replaced three lifts even though it was only supposed to replace one. And it was never meant to do that ever. I don't think Devil's Fiddle was ever a necessary lift. It's not like the trail itself was ever open much and the Bear quad doesn't really line up except maybe during BMMC. They definitely need a South Ridge lift desperately. The only way to anything past Superstar is to go around the K1 lodge and have to go up the K1 while connecting through South Ridge already put you up there. The fact that they still haven't replaced it goes to show you that whoever makes the financial decisions on what upgrades to do doesn't ski at Killington.