Tariff man strikes again

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Kpdemello
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Tariff man strikes again

Post by Kpdemello »

Good to see Trump's tariff policy is working: :roll:
Trump, who called for a boycott against the motorcycle company [Harley Davidson] last year amid a spat over steel, said that the EU tariffs have forced Harley to move U.S. jobs overseas. “So unfair to U.S. We will Reciprocate!” he said in a tweet citing comments by Fox Business’ Maria Bartiromo.

Harley announced plans last year to move production of its motorcycles destined for the EU to overseas facilities from the U.S. to avoid EU tariffs imposed in retaliation against Trump’s duties on aluminum and steel imports. In response, Trump called for a boycott of the company and threatened higher taxes as retaliation.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/23/harley- ... nings.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Almost a year and a half into these tariff/trade battles and not one single deal has resulted from them apart from a marginally better NAFTA 2.0 that has yet to be ratified. Anybody ready yet to concede that Trump has no idea what he's doing on trade?
madhatter
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by madhatter »

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/harle ... 2018-06-26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The war of words between President Trump and Harley-Davidson over its decision to shift some production to Europe conceals a simple truth: The famed American company has been expanding overseas for years.

Harley-Davison HOG, -2.27% made its first foray outside the U.S. near the end of the Clinton administration in 1999 when it opened a plant in Brazil. The company later acquired a parts maker in Australia during the Bush years. It opened a plant in India in 2011 when Barack Obama was president. And shortly after Trump took office in 2017, Harley-Davidson said it would build a plant in Thailand.

Europe is the next frontier. The Milwaukee-based motorcycle maker on Monday said it would build bikes in Europe for the first time ever, blaming retaliatory tariffs by the European Union. The EU raised its tariff on motorcycles to 31% from 6% in response to White House duties on foreign steel.

The company said the tariffs would raise the cost of bikes shipped to Europe by as much as $2,200 each and reduce profits by up to $100 million annually.

The president is known to make a lot accusations, but he might have a point. The union representing Harley’s American workers contends Harley-Davidson was just itching to make the switch.

“I think they had this planned for some time. I think they are using this as an excuse,” Joe Capra of the International Association of Machinists & Aerospace Workers told NPR. Capra is a union representative at a plant in Kansas City that will be closed next year at the cost of 800 jobs.

What the company also failed to mention is that while one Trump policy could cost them money, another saves them plenty of coin. The company could save up to $100 million a year at the lower corporate tax rate under the new Trump tax rules.

In effect, the Trump tax cuts should have given Harley-Davidson extra cushion to ride out the current trade fight.

Instead, the company chose to raise its dividend earlier this year and buy back shares, a decision that could cost far more than any short-term losses from the U.S. trade dispute with Europe.

It was probably inevitable that Harley-Davidson would plant a flag in Europe, however. Sales are slowing in the U.S. because of demographic shifts and they are growing in Europe, the company’s second-largest market. The tariffs may have simply sped up the decision by Harley to shift more production to the continent so it can be closer to its customers.

The earlier shift to Asia was undertaken for the same reason, but there’s a big difference. Countries such as China, India and Thailand have huge and unfair tariffs that force companies wanting to do business to relocate there — exactly what Trump is complaining about.

Also Read: The U.S. economy might hit this milestone for the first time in 13 years if corporate America keeps it up

Thailand charges a minimum 60% tariff and India 100%, effectively doubling the price of a Harley shipped from the U.S. Harley-Davidson has built plants in those countries to avoid the steep tariffs and make bikes more cheaply for customers who earn far less money than the typical American.

The company eventually aims to generate half its revenue outside the United States.

Seen in that light, the Trump tariffs gave the company an opening.





https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/tr ... on-profits" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

President Trump Opens a New Window. vowed on Tuesday to reciprocate against “unfair” European Union tariffs that are hitting Harley-Davidson after the company posted a first-quarter profit that dropped 26.7 percent.

The U.S. motorcycle company blamed its slumped profits on falling U.S. sales and European import tariffs. However, Harley topped Wall Street’s expectations by more than 30 cents, sending its shares higher.
:zzz
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
deadheadskier
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by deadheadskier »

https://www.wsj.com/articles/consumers- ... 1555936276" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kpdemello
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by Kpdemello »

Those who have studied economics know that tariffs always lead to higher prices. That's the point - increase the cost to foreign companies allowing U.S. companies to charge more. The net effect is supposed to be that local industry gets a boost and is better able to compete with foreign companies producing cheaper goods, and ultimately boosting local employment and thereby the local economy.

In the case of Trump's tariffs, they're merely retaliatory - he's imposing tariffs on things to harm other country's economies to get them to the bargaining table to talk about reducing their tariffs. If you're a simpleton, this seems like a good strategy. In practice, as we have seen, politics come into play and no foreign country wants to back down and lose face once challenged in this way.

Basically I think Trump has the right idea in trying to negotiate with other countries to get foreign tariffs lowered on U.S. goods. I just think he's completely screwed up the execution of this strategy from the jump.
madhatter
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by madhatter »

gee no way? a tax ( tarriff) gets passed on to the consumer? it goes both ways...( a higher price here can mean lost sale there)

I'm not seeing any real negative repercussions...you can point to stats but the reality is the economy is cranking, unemployment is low, jobs are plentiful, wages are up...

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/421 ... re-working" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Throughout 2018, there has been a constant wave of criticism regarding the tariffs that President Trump imposed on an array of imports, principally from China.

However, the evidence shows that the tariffs are actually working. Economic growth is up, inflation is under control, and many of the tariffed industries are enjoying strong recoveries in output, profits and employment.

An economic analysis we conducted at the Coalition for a Prosperous America (CPA) explains why we are seeing stronger economic growth this year and can also expect more gains over the next three years.

The economic numbers in 2018 are already impressive. In the third quarter of this year, growth in inflation-adjusted GDP (the broadest measure of U.S. economic activity) came in at 3.5 percent. That’s far better than most economists expected a year ago.

The Commerce Department is also reporting that consumer spending was up a strong 0.6 percent in October. That’s good, too, but even more stunning is the data showing online consumer sales were up 23.6 percent for “Black Friday” compared with last year.

Economists and retailers are now expecting strong holiday sales, driven by low unemployment, with wages rising slightly faster than inflation.

Even more impressive is the growth in America’s manufacturing sector. Despite continual predictions that the proverbial sky is falling, the Trump tariffs have actually combined with other policies to trigger an economic boom for U.S. manufacturing.

Federal data shows U.S factory employment up 296,000 jobs compared with a year ago. And manufacturers are reporting that demand for their products has increased in a broad range of industries — including everything from tiny medical devices to heavy construction machinery. This mirrors the closely-watched Purchasing Managers’ Index, which shows broad optimism across U.S. manufacturing.

The tariffs have contributed to this growth, both directly and indirectly. In the four main areas where tariffs were imposed — steel, aluminum, solar panels, and washing machines — the U.S. has directly added more than 11,000 jobs as of August.

Since then, more investments and jobs have been announced — including a massive $1.5 billion steel plant by Steel Dynamics that will employ some 600 workers. And in the solar arena, Solar Power World magazine lists more than a dozen U.S. companies where new facilities have been “started and/or expanded.”

After so much negative press, how is it that the tariffs are working so well?

Critics claim that tariffs will raise prices, which will hurt economic growth. However, the tariffs have been in place for almost a year now and “core inflation” remains low, at just 2.1 percent annually, as of October.

What’s happening is that, at each stage of production for various manufacturing sectors, intermediate producers appear to be absorbing the cost increases. In fact, the main upward pressure for inflation in the U.S. economy, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), is actually coming from energy and rising costs for housing. Tariffs have had no noticeable effect on the inflation picture.

Why have the tariffs been working so well? The Coalition for a Prosperous America (CPA) examined both the positive and negative impacts of tariffs on the U.S. economy. We found that the tariffs have added $9 billion to U.S. GDP this year.

Hiring in the tariffed industries is carrying over to local supply chains and communities, boosting regional economic growth. Meanwhile the much-feared negative effects due to price increases have not happened.

The truth is that the U.S. economy has always been a domestically-driven economy. Exports account for only about 12 percent of U.S. GDP.

The great century of American economic growth — from 1870 to 1970 — was based entirely on making America’s workers prosperous enough to buy the very same goods they were producing. That is the secret to U.S. economic growth, and it’s happening again now.

In short, the tariffs are working. Some argue that tariffs are a “nationalist” policy. But the tariffs are not eliminating imports. Clearly, the U.S. will continue to import a wide swath of goods, but a stronger domestic manufacturing sector will mean a higher growth path for the nation as a whole.
again I don't think most people are seeing a problem other than the one fed to them by the media...

ya gotta do what they tell you...( well some of you do)
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
Bubba
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by Bubba »

madhatter wrote:
gee no way? a tax ( tarriff) gets passed on to the consumer? it goes both ways...( a higher price here can mean lost sale there)

I'm not seeing any real negative repercussions...you can point to stats but the reality is the economy is cranking, unemployment is low, jobs are plentiful, wages are up...

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/421 ... re-working" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Throughout 2018, there has been a constant wave of criticism regarding the tariffs that President Trump imposed on an array of imports, principally from China.

However, the evidence shows that the tariffs are actually working. Economic growth is up, inflation is under control, and many of the tariffed industries are enjoying strong recoveries in output, profits and employment.

An economic analysis we conducted at the Coalition for a Prosperous America (CPA) explains why we are seeing stronger economic growth this year and can also expect more gains over the next three years.

The economic numbers in 2018 are already impressive. In the third quarter of this year, growth in inflation-adjusted GDP (the broadest measure of U.S. economic activity) came in at 3.5 percent. That’s far better than most economists expected a year ago.

The Commerce Department is also reporting that consumer spending was up a strong 0.6 percent in October. That’s good, too, but even more stunning is the data showing online consumer sales were up 23.6 percent for “Black Friday” compared with last year.

Economists and retailers are now expecting strong holiday sales, driven by low unemployment, with wages rising slightly faster than inflation.

Even more impressive is the growth in America’s manufacturing sector. Despite continual predictions that the proverbial sky is falling, the Trump tariffs have actually combined with other policies to trigger an economic boom for U.S. manufacturing.

Federal data shows U.S factory employment up 296,000 jobs compared with a year ago. And manufacturers are reporting that demand for their products has increased in a broad range of industries — including everything from tiny medical devices to heavy construction machinery. This mirrors the closely-watched Purchasing Managers’ Index, which shows broad optimism across U.S. manufacturing.

The tariffs have contributed to this growth, both directly and indirectly. In the four main areas where tariffs were imposed — steel, aluminum, solar panels, and washing machines — the U.S. has directly added more than 11,000 jobs as of August.

Since then, more investments and jobs have been announced — including a massive $1.5 billion steel plant by Steel Dynamics that will employ some 600 workers. And in the solar arena, Solar Power World magazine lists more than a dozen U.S. companies where new facilities have been “started and/or expanded.”

After so much negative press, how is it that the tariffs are working so well?

Critics claim that tariffs will raise prices, which will hurt economic growth. However, the tariffs have been in place for almost a year now and “core inflation” remains low, at just 2.1 percent annually, as of October.

What’s happening is that, at each stage of production for various manufacturing sectors, intermediate producers appear to be absorbing the cost increases. In fact, the main upward pressure for inflation in the U.S. economy, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), is actually coming from energy and rising costs for housing. Tariffs have had no noticeable effect on the inflation picture.

Why have the tariffs been working so well? The Coalition for a Prosperous America (CPA) examined both the positive and negative impacts of tariffs on the U.S. economy. We found that the tariffs have added $9 billion to U.S. GDP this year.

Hiring in the tariffed industries is carrying over to local supply chains and communities, boosting regional economic growth. Meanwhile the much-feared negative effects due to price increases have not happened.

The truth is that the U.S. economy has always been a domestically-driven economy. Exports account for only about 12 percent of U.S. GDP.

The great century of American economic growth — from 1870 to 1970 — was based entirely on making America’s workers prosperous enough to buy the very same goods they were producing. That is the secret to U.S. economic growth, and it’s happening again now.

In short, the tariffs are working. Some argue that tariffs are a “nationalist” policy. But the tariffs are not eliminating imports. Clearly, the U.S. will continue to import a wide swath of goods, but a stronger domestic manufacturing sector will mean a higher growth path for the nation as a whole.
again I don't think most people are seeing a problem other than the one fed to them by the media...

ya gotta do what they tell you...( well some of you do)
If you're going to start a trade war, now has been the time to do it, when the economy is doing well (as it was before Trump) and jobs are plentiful. The issue is whether starting a trade war was the right strategy through which to accomplish a reasonably worthwhile goal.
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Kpdemello
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by Kpdemello »

Bubba wrote:If you're going to start a trade war, now has been the time to do it, when the economy is doing well (as it was before Trump) and jobs are plentiful. The issue is whether starting a trade war was the right strategy through which to accomplish a reasonably worthwhile goal.
I'm not even opposed to the concept of threatening to impose tariffs. But Trump's approach was terrible. A better way to do this would be the way it was done with the original NAFTA agreement. Get a bunch of countries to sit down and develop a free trade zone. Other countries are doing it (See EU, ASEAN). Or, if you want to do it unilaterally, call up the leader of a country and say hey, we want to negotiate trade. And start doing it before you threaten them. Offer them something they want. You know, make a deal. If they then drag their feet, tell them look, you have tariffs, and we will reciprocate with equivalent tariffs on the same stuff. Then give them a deadline. Be reasonable.

Instead, trump just started imposing tariffs having nothing to do with anything other than causing harm to other countries to get them to the bargaining table. In economic terms, he pulled out a gun, pointed it at their head, and said, "let's make a deal" Who is going to negotiate in good faith under those conditions?
madhatter
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by madhatter »

Kpdemello wrote:
Bubba wrote:If you're going to start a trade war, now has been the time to do it, when the economy is doing well (as it was before Trump) and jobs are plentiful. The issue is whether starting a trade war was the right strategy through which to accomplish a reasonably worthwhile goal.
I'm not even opposed to the concept of threatening to impose tariffs. But Trump's approach was terrible. A better way to do this would be the way it was done with the original NAFTA agreement. Get a bunch of countries to sit down and develop a free trade zone. Other countries are doing it (See EU, ASEAN). Or, if you want to do it unilaterally, call up the leader of a country and say hey, we want to negotiate trade. And start doing it before you threaten them. Offer them something they want. You know, make a deal. If they then drag their feet, tell them look, you have tariffs, and we will reciprocate with equivalent tariffs on the same stuff. Then give them a deadline. Be reasonable.

Instead, trump just started imposing tariffs having nothing to do with anything other than causing harm to other countries to get them to the bargaining table. In economic terms, he pulled out a gun, pointed it at their head, and said, "let's make a deal" Who is going to negotiate in good faith under those conditions?
anyone who wants to survive?

so these countries already have tariffs or other trade barriers not favorable to the US...Trump hits em back to level the field and you take issue with it calling it a terrible approach?

as always your " evil orange " lens obscures all that you see...
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Mister Moose
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by Mister Moose »

Kpdemello wrote:if you want to do it unilaterally, call up the leader of a country and say hey, we want to negotiate trade. And start doing it before you threaten them. Offer them something they want. You know, make a deal. If they then drag their feet, tell them look, you have tariffs, and we will reciprocate with equivalent tariffs on the same stuff. Then give them a deadline. Be reasonable.
This is exactly what happened prior to the tariffs.
Image
Kpdemello
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by Kpdemello »

Mister Moose wrote:
Kpdemello wrote:if you want to do it unilaterally, call up the leader of a country and say hey, we want to negotiate trade. And start doing it before you threaten them. Offer them something they want. You know, make a deal. If they then drag their feet, tell them look, you have tariffs, and we will reciprocate with equivalent tariffs on the same stuff. Then give them a deadline. Be reasonable.
This is exactly what happened prior to the tariffs.
If you are trying to suggest that this is the approach that Trump took, then I think you're really stretching the truth. He offered other countries nothing, threatened them from the start with tariffs, and in most cases didn't even have real talks with them. He did what he always does - he demanded something, and then when he wasn't given what he demanded, he started carrying out his threats - in this case imposing tariffs. He also didn't impose reciprocal tariffs, meaning he didn't impose tariffs on the same stuff they impose on us, and at the same rates. Instead, he just applied higher tariffs than those imposed on U.S. goods, like the 25% tariff on steel, in an effort to put pressure on other countries that he wanted a deal from. In short, he wasn't reasonable, was excessively combative, and was incredibly un-diplomatic. Is it any wonder he's failed so miserably so far?

FYI, in response to Trump's crazy, Canada did exactly what I suggested - they imposed reciprocal tariffs equivalent to what Trump put on goods going to them. That's a reasonable response, unlike what Trump has been doing.

Citation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_tariffs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
madhatter
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by madhatter »

Kpdemello wrote:
Mister Moose wrote:
Kpdemello wrote:if you want to do it unilaterally, call up the leader of a country and say hey, we want to negotiate trade. And start doing it before you threaten them. Offer them something they want. You know, make a deal. If they then drag their feet, tell them look, you have tariffs, and we will reciprocate with equivalent tariffs on the same stuff. clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.....limit tariffs to the " same stuff" how fvcking stupid are you anyway? Then give them a deadline. Be reasonable.
This is exactly what happened prior to the tariffs.
I hate that bad orange man...
yer too stupid to comprehend...what he said was prior to imposing tariffs these meaningless negotiation tactics you mention above were the status quo...that's why he's taking a different approach...

take off your orange goggles of hate...
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
Kpdemello
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by Kpdemello »

As an aside, Obama negotiated way more trade deals than Trump during the first term of his administration:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44989775/ns/p ... MgiqWhKhdg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
madhatter
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by madhatter »

Kpdemello wrote:As an aside, Obama negotiated way more trade deals than Trump during the first term of his administration:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44989775/ns/p ... MgiqWhKhdg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
whoop ti do...



Obama signs 3 trade deals, biggest since NAFTA
President Barack Obama signed off Friday on the first three — and possibly last — free trade agreements of his administration, deals with South Korea, Colombia, and Panama that could be worth billions to American exporters and create tens of thousands of jobs.

The three deals were years in the making, and the difficulty of bringing them to fruition make it unlikely there will be another bilateral trade agreement during Obama's current term.
The three deals were initially signed in the George W. Bush administration but were slowed down as the Obama White House renegotiated changes and haggled with Republicans over the worker aid program. Democratic opposition was strongest against the Colombia deal because of that country's record of violence against labor leaders.
nearly three-fourths of House Democrats voted against the trade measures.
The Obama administration was cool to legislation passed by the Senate last month that would make it easier to impose higher tariffs on China if it continues to keep its currency undervalued as a way to make its exports cheaper.
meanwhile:

https://www.democracynow.org/2009/8/11/ ... enegotiate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Obama Reverses Campaign Pledge to Renegotiate NAFTA

Did you have a point? and if so what was it?
mach es sehr schnell

'exponential reciprocation'- The practice of always giving back more than you take....
freeski
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by freeski »

Here's some more rope it should be enough. :shock:

Yes, Obama was the reason ALL of the printing presses in Concord, NH went to Mexico.

Most of the Focus Factories in the lakes region of NH went to Quartero, MEX. He said "Come On In Folks"

"You didn't Build That".

"Get me high and do my duaghters"

"It don't matter if you ain't play basketball, organize a criminal gang"

"We have lost our manufacturing jobs, forever"

Big butts okay on my lady, Big butts healthy, little white butts, well we don't need dat"

The more history unfolds the more wrong he was, the more he f'd us over.

I voted for him twice.
I Belong A Long Way From Here.
Kpdemello
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Re: Tariff man strikes again

Post by Kpdemello »

Prepare for a big drop in the stock market today thanks to Trump ratcheting up the rhetoric against China and China responding with a middle finger. Like I said above, the man is clueless on how to make these kinds of deals.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/05/traders ... hreat.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW I do think that CNBC article is a bit alarmist, because ultimately I think Trump will back down. He needs a deal with China more than China needs it with him. He's just being the usual bluffing bully that he is, and China will call his bluff. At least that's what I'm hoping.
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