End all immigration now-legal and illegal

[Kpdemello]

Our resources are limited. Choices get made. And El Salvador having problems by virtue of us deporting their criminals, this is a serious comment?

From the other thread I referenced:

This LA street gang became a problem for El Salvador after a change in U.S. immigration policy in 1996, when the U.S. increased the number of crimes that were subject to deportation. The U.S. also deported those with suspected gang links. El Salvador hardly had the infrastructure to handle the influx of returning migrants and dismantle criminal organizations, especially since it was still recovering from the war. Between 1998 and 2014, the U.S. deported over 81,000 migrants back to El Salvador.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ms-13-ille ... originals/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You don't think that military intervention was well intentioned?

It certainly wasn't focused on making these places more stable. It was mostly focused on fighting communism and/or drugs. I think the problem with most of it was that there was no attempt to rebuild after tearing down.

Sure, resources are limited. But you have no problem spending billions on a wall. I think the money is better spent improving the conditions in central America.

[Mister Moose]

Our resources are limited. Choices get made. And El Salvador having problems by virtue of us deporting their criminals, this is a serious comment?

From the other thread I referenced:

This LA street gang became a problem for El Salvador after a change in U.S. immigration policy in 1996, when the U.S. increased the number of crimes that were subject to deportation. The U.S. also deported those with suspected gang links. El Salvador hardly had the infrastructure to handle the influx of returning migrants and dismantle criminal organizations, especially since it was still recovering from the war. Between 1998 and 2014, the U.S. deported over 81,000 migrants back to El Salvador.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ms-13-ille ... originals/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Missed my point entirely. Their criminals are their problem. No one else's. We are not the world's prison system.

You don't think that military intervention was well intentioned?

It certainly wasn't focused on making these places more stable. It was mostly focused on fighting communism and/or drugs. I think the problem with most of it was that there was no attempt to rebuild after tearing down.

Sure, resources are limited. But you have no problem spending billions on a wall. I think the money is better spent improving the conditions in central America.

You have to fix the flat tire before you drive the car to the garage for a engine valve job. The porous border has been a problem for decades. There is a huge billion dollar issue with border porosity. So the price tag is not out of the ball park. However, a far better solution to the bulk of the illegal migration has maybe been presented in the way of 1) pressuring Mexico to stop allowing the transit through their country, and 2) Change the asylum rules to where you have to apply in the first country you arrive in.

If the mass illegal entry problem gets mostly eliminated, maybe then you can make a case for doing a cost/benefit analysis on a wall.

[madhatter]

Our resources are limited. Choices get made. And El Salvador having problems by virtue of us deporting their criminals, this is a serious comment?

From the other thread I referenced:

This LA street gang became a problem for El Salvador after a change in U.S. immigration policy in 1996, when the U.S. increased the number of crimes that were subject to deportation. The U.S. also deported those with suspected gang links. El Salvador hardly had the infrastructure to handle the influx of returning migrants and dismantle criminal organizations, especially since it was still recovering from the war. Between 1998 and 2014, the U.S. deported over 81,000 migrants back to El Salvador.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ms-13-ille ... originals/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Missed my point entirely. Their criminals are their problem. No one else's. We are not the world's prison system.

You don't think that military intervention was well intentioned?

It certainly wasn't focused on making these places more stable. It was mostly focused on fighting communism and/or drugs. I think the problem with most of it was that there was no attempt to rebuild after tearing down.

Sure, resources are limited. But you have no problem spending billions on a wall. I think the money is better spent improving the conditions in central America.

You have to fix the flat tire before you drive the car to the garage for a engine valve job. The porous border has been a problem for decades. There is a huge billion dollar issue with border porosity. So the price tag is not out of the ball park. However, a far better solution to the bulk of the illegal migration has maybe been presented in the way of 1) pressuring Mexico to stop allowing the transit through their country, and 2) Change the asylum rules to where you have to apply in the first country you arrive in.

If the mass illegal entry problem gets mostly eliminated, maybe then you can make a case for doing a cost/benefit analysis on a wall.

yep...but don't expect logic to have any effect...

[Kpdemello]

Missed my point entirely. Their criminals are their problem. No one else's. We are not the world's prison system.

And I guess you missed mine. These people weren't criminals until the came to the U.S., were recruited/pressured into joining a U.S. gang, and then sent back to El Salvador. MS-13 started in the United States and was exported to El Salvador, who couldn't cope with the problem in part because they were recovering from a war that had U.S. involvement. So the U.S. is at least partly to blame for El Salvador's problems. That was my point.

Central America is our back yard. We have troops all over the world - Europe, Asia, the middle east - yet we neglect the glaring problems in our own back yard. We should be pulling our resources out of places like Europe, Asia, and Africa and should be deploying them closer to home, where it will actually make a difference on our southern border.

[Mister Moose]

Missed my point entirely. Their criminals are their problem. No one else's. We are not the world's prison system.

And I guess you missed mine. These people weren't criminals until the came to the U.S., were recruited/pressured into joining a U.S. gang, and then sent back to El Salvador. MS-13 started in the United States and was exported to El Salvador. That was my point.

OK, so now if you don't value being a guest in the US enough to not be a criminal, you get to stay. I can't agree with that. I can feel my heartstrings being tugged at by the unfortunate pressure that led to that decision, but I cannot support that decision. Criminal immigrants get deported. Citizen criminal's kids grow up fatherless (or motherless) when their parent gets sent to prison. That's the way it has to work.

[Kpdemello]

Again, missing the point. Sorry I edited before your post above, but the point is that the U.S. is at least partly to blame for what happened in El Salvador. The MS-13 gang was created here, in the U.S., and exported there. Therefore the U.S. is partly to blame for El Salvador's problems.

[Highway Star]

Again, missing the point. Sorry I edited before your post above, but the point is that the U.S. is at least partly to blame for what happened in El Salvador. The MS-13 gang was created here, in the U.S., and exported there. Therefore the U.S. is partly to blame for El Salvador's problems.

Crackhead.

[Mister Moose]

Central America is our back yard. We have troops all over the world - Europe, Asia, the middle east - yet we neglect the glaring problems in our own back yard. We should be pulling our resources out of places like Europe, Asia, and Africa and should be deploying them closer to home, where it will actually make a difference on our southern border.

I'm just going to let that sit there and get a weathered patina on it.

[Kpdemello]

Crackhead.

Ah, an excellent point. Many of these places like El Salvador have become crime-infested because they've been selling drugs on the U.S. market for decades. Does the U.S. bear no responsibility for its people purchasing this stuff and sending so many narco dollars to criminal enterprises in places like El Salvador? Hell, the U.S. government even collaborated with these criminals during Iran-Contra.

[madhatter]

Rep. Jim Jordan (R-OH) tore into Democrats during a Thursday House Oversight Committee hearing, reminding the selective-outrage brigade that "Not One Single So-Called Cage Has Been Constructed By The Trump Administration... not one."

"During the presidency of Barack Obama, we didn't see outrage from the Democrats then. We didn't see prominent Democrat members of Congress condemning the "concentration camps" torture then. Again, President Trump has not built a single "cage."

The cages you see in the news and on Twitter were constructed by President Obama's administration.

now granted AOC wasn't in congress back then...but CNN was around, so was MSNBC, cryin' chuck was there, pelosi was there, so was elijah cummings, he may have actually been around during the civil war too...

[Kpdemello]

Missed my point entirely. Their criminals are their problem. No one else's. We are not the world's prison system.

And I guess you missed mine. These people weren't criminals until the came to the U.S., were recruited/pressured into joining a U.S. gang, and then sent back to El Salvador. MS-13 started in the United States and was exported to El Salvador. That was my point.

OK, so now if you don't value being a guest in the US enough to not be a criminal, you get to stay. I can't agree with that. I can feel my heartstrings being tugged at by the unfortunate pressure that led to that decision, but I cannot support that decision. Criminal immigrants get deported. Citizen criminal's kids grow up fatherless (or motherless) when their parent gets sent to prison. That's the way it has to work.

You know, I wasn't suggesting that criminals who aren't citizens should be allowed to stay. I'm suggesting that the problem is more complex than "you commit crime, you get deported." That policy created many of the problems we have now.

MS-13 was created in the United States. Sure, illegal aliens have become involved. But merely deporting illegal aliens associated with that gang is not going to solve the problem. In some ways, it makes it worse - you deport a criminal alien, and they are free to try to come back in right away. If you had prosecuted and imprisoned that alien, they might have been in jail for a long time instead of walking. Furthermore, a place like El Salvador doesn't have the resources to fight MS-13. So you send this MS-13 gang member back to an MS-13 stronghold where he can then be recycled into the criminal organization. Wouldn't it be in the U.S.'s interest to lend some resources to that fight? If you want to eliminate a gang like MS-13, doesn't it make sense to take out their stronghold in El Salvador where it is otherwise outside our reach?

And before you talk about strengthening border security so that these MS-13 gang members can't get back in, I think we need to realize the practical limitations of securing a 2,000 plus mile border. An organization like MS-13 has resources and isn't going to be stopped by a wall. It's going to be virtually impossible, absent some real draconian measures, to prevent a determined organization with resources from getting people into the U.S. Just look at the history of the drug war - we've had next to zero success stopping people from bringing in illegal contraband for decades. We should be treating the problem, not the symptom. If the problem is MS-13 and gangs like it, lets go after them, and not waste time on useless things like big shiny walls.