States rights

[easyrider16]

Any Trump supporters want to talk about state's rights? How about a state's right to deal with local problems without Federal interference?

"Federal agents in Portland continue crackdown; protesters and local leaders shout 'Go home'"


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/feder ... &PC=EMMX01" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[XtremeJibber2001]

DHS Acting Secretary on the pushback to their crackdown in Portland, Oregon: "I don't need invitations by the state, state mayors or state governors to do our job. We're going to do that whether they like us there or not."

[daytripper]

Last I checked Oregon was still part of the USA.

[easyrider16]

Yep, it's a state. And conservatives love to talk about state's rights when it supports their point of view. But I've heard not a peep here when state officials are asking the Fed to stand down, and the Fed refuses, on a basically local issue. Thoughts?

My point is that the concept of state's rights is a bullsh!t argument to support a specific agenda. Nobody actually believes in it unless it helps their agenda.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[daytripper]

Yep, it's a state. And conservatives love to talk about state's rights when it supports their point of view. But I've heard not a peep here when state officials are asking the Fed to stand down, and the Fed refuses, on a basically local issue. Thoughts?

My point is that the concept of state's rights is a bullsh!t argument to support a specific agenda. Nobody actually believes in it unless it helps their agenda.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Well of course, that's how politics works. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

[easyrider16]

You're welcome and I am glad we could agree on this key issue in our lives.

[Sporte]

Sure. Oregon authorizes federal officers to enforce state law. Under Oregon Revised Statutes § 133.245, a federal officer may arrest any person “[f]or any crime committed in the federal officer’s presence if the federal officer has probable cause to believe the person committed the crime.”

There are also several Federal properties in Portland including Federal court houses, IRS, FBI field office, etc. Those are on Federal land, not City or State and the Federal Government has full independent authority to protect those buildings, statutes or whatever.

[Sporte]

BTW, I am not all that thrilled about Trump but Portland is out of control. Even if it is the intent of the local government, the residents and business owners should be protected by somebody.

[Bubba]

Sure. Oregon authorizes federal officers to enforce state law. Under Oregon Revised Statutes § 133.245, a federal officer may arrest any person “[f]or any crime committed in the federal officer’s presence if the federal officer has probable cause to believe the person committed the crime.”

There are also several Federal properties in Portland including Federal court houses, IRS, FBI field office, etc. Those are on Federal land, not City or State and the Federal Government has full independent authority to protect those buildings, statutes or whatever.

So, unless you believe in the use of secret police by the Federal government, put names and identification on their people, put identification on their vehicles, and read those hauled off the streets their Miranda rights as you take them in.

[XtremeJibber2001]

Sure. Oregon authorizes federal officers to enforce state law. Under Oregon Revised Statutes § 133.245, a federal officer may arrest any person “[f]or any crime committed in the federal officer’s presence if the federal officer has probable cause to believe the person committed the crime.”

There are also several Federal properties in Portland including Federal court houses, IRS, FBI field office, etc. Those are on Federal land, not City or State and the Federal Government has full independent authority to protect those buildings, statutes or whatever.

So, unless you believe in the use of secret police by the Federal government, put names and identification on their people, put identification on their vehicles, and read those hauled off the streets their Miranda rights as you take them in.

This. Absolutely no issue with Fed protecting Fed assets, but have identification on uniforms and vehicles.

[daytripper]

Sure. Oregon authorizes federal officers to enforce state law. Under Oregon Revised Statutes § 133.245, a federal officer may arrest any person “[f]or any crime committed in the federal officer’s presence if the federal officer has probable cause to believe the person committed the crime.”

There are also several Federal properties in Portland including Federal court houses, IRS, FBI field office, etc. Those are on Federal land, not City or State and the Federal Government has full independent authority to protect those buildings, statutes or whatever.

So, unless you believe in the use of secret police by the Federal government, put names and identification on their people, put identification on their vehicles, and read those hauled off the streets their Miranda rights as you take them in.

Are you against unmarked local police like detectives and street crime units as well?

[easyrider16]

Sure. Oregon authorizes federal officers to enforce state law. Under Oregon Revised Statutes § 133.245, a federal officer may arrest any person “[f]or any crime committed in the federal officer’s presence if the federal officer has probable cause to believe the person committed the crime.”

There are also several Federal properties in Portland including Federal court houses, IRS, FBI field office, etc. Those are on Federal land, not City or State and the Federal Government has full independent authority to protect those buildings, statutes or whatever.

The statute also provides:

The federal officer shall inform the person to be arrested of the federal officer’s authority and reason for the arrest.

In order to make an arrest, a federal officer may use physical force as is justifiable and authorized of a peace officer under ORS 161.235 (Use of physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape), 161.239 (Use of deadly physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape) and 161.245 (“Reasonable belief” described).

I'm not sure disbursing a crowd with gas and shooting projectiles at them really meets what that statute is talking about. Regardless, the approach of Federal law enforcement should be to work with local authorities, not independently of them. I'm not disputing the Federal government's right to protect its facilities. These Federal agents seem to have gone well beyond that and into crowd control. See here, where police are projectiles and deploying gas to disburse protestors, not simply making arrests for violations of law:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/21/us/analy ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is also the argument of local authorities that by using such heavy-handed tactics, the Feds are making things worse and sparking more protests instead of de-escalating the situation. Frankly, the whole thing seems like an attempt by Trump to create a story where he's the hero, cracking down on bad guys to distract from all his other problems. I am not okay with looting, vandalism, and the like. But I am also very not okay with police beating people up and tear gassing them during peaceful protests. It reminds me of the pictures of the same thing happening during the civil rights movement.

[Sporte]

And state police detectives, and FBI agents who rarely ware uniforms or drive marked cars... If that is your idea of secret police, then I guess I am in favor of them. Anyway, this is not the case in Portland. DHS has stated (not sure where you are getting your information) that all officers are in uniform with POLICE on their backs and patches on both shoulders identifying their agency and unit like DHS, CBP, and US Marshalls. They do not display their names but have an identifier number like the number on a police shield. This is to prevent doxing. The reason BLM and Antifia are annoyed is because they want their names so they can post the home address of the officer, their wife and children. I just spent some time looking at recent pictures of Portland from mostly liberal publications and in every one where I could see their shoulder, there was a patch. You try. If they are trying to be secret police, they are screwing up badly.

BTW, you do not get Miranda rights unless you are under arrest. You can be detained without needing Miranda rights.

(United States v. Bullock, 632 F.3d 1004 (7th Cir. 2011).). Officers handcuffed a suspect and placed him in the back of a squad car while they searched a house he had just visited. The appeals court held that their actions didn’t turn the detention into an arrest because they needed to avoid an escape attempt and to take precautions against potential violence.

[XtremeJibber2001]

They do not display their names but have an identifier number like the number on a police shield. This is to prevent doxing.

Why do Marines wear their name on their BDUs?

[easyrider16]

BTW, you do not get Miranda rights unless you are under arrest. You can be detained without needing Miranda rights.

(United States v. Bullock, 632 F.3d 1004 (7th Cir. 2011).). Officers handcuffed a suspect and placed him in the back of a squad car while they searched a house he had just visited. The appeals court held that their actions didn’t turn the detention into an arrest because they needed to avoid an escape attempt and to take precautions against potential violence.

Sure, but you need to have reasonable grounds for detaining someone. In Bullock, they were executing a search warrant and had reasonable grounds to suspect the detained person was participating in narcotics distribution. I'm not sure that logic applies to a protestor, or even someone who committed an act of vandalism. If the police saw someone vandalizing, the only reason to detain them would be for arrest. What's the reason for detaining these people in oregon without Miranda?