Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

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XtremeJibber2001
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Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

Hoping Biden holds his current position and does not succumb to pressures from within his party.

Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt. It's bad for Joe Biden, Democrats and America.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 840537001/
Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt. It's bad for Joe Biden, Democrats and America.

A Great Forgiveness via Biden executive order would stir resentment and hurt Democrats' ability to defend the government from mendacious Republicans.

Tom Nichols
Opinion

Some prominent Democrats, including Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Sen. Elizabeth Warren, are pressuring President Joe Biden to forgive up to $50,000 in student loan debt by issuing an executive order. This is a bad idea on so many levels it is difficult to know where to begin.

It should be uncontroversial to insist that American citizens 18 or older are adults who are responsible for what they bought when they signed, as the line from "Glengarry Glen Ross" goes, “on the line which is dotted.” Taking out a loan you didn’t understand is not fraud, no matter how much you might wish it were, and there is no compelling reason for making this debt vanish with a flick of Biden’s pen.

But the debate over loan forgiveness is now driven by emotion rather than reason. For its proponents, it is a humanitarian act to help people who were, apparently, hoodwinked into taking out loans to go to college and only miserable tightwads would reject it. For opponents, it is another example of decadent Americans wanting taxpayer bailouts for their personal choices, a liberal boomer gift to their own grandchildren that no one will ever see again.

Student loan forgiveness is bad politics

I realize this all sounds like an impassioned plea for young people to get off my lawn, but I am neither a boomer nor a millennial or a Gen Xer. My little notch of the population born between 1958 and 1964 was too young for Buffalo Springfield and too old for Nirvana. I came from a working-class family, the first to go to college, and I spent years paying off student loans that in the late 1970s were being issued at inflation-driven rates of nearly 14%. I understand the impulse to take this financial millstone and make it all just go away.

This all makes for powerful talking points, but maybe not in the way Democrats might hope.

So let’s talk instead about whether loan forgiveness is good politics in a time when the Democratic Party is holding out by a razor-thin margin against the authoritarian political movement known as the modern Republican Party. There are three reasons the loan forgiveness plan mostly hurts the Democrats in the near term. These are cynical and unpleasant issues to have to discuss, but they are not going to go away between now and the next two election cycles.

First, the Republicans will portray this as a costly giveaway that shows just how much Democrats care about college graduates and not at all about working people — and for once, their class-warfare rhetoric won’t be entirely wrong. The beneficiaries will be a select group of Americans.

Indeed, the Republicans never miss a trick. They will seize on examples of untypical Americans like those profiled recently in a New York magazine article that was, to put it mildly, unhelpful to the case for forgiveness. It featured a 40ish man who admits he transferred to a pricey school to study film production, a 20-something whose $9,800 in remaining debt is preventing her elective breast reduction surgery, and a gay couple — both full-time professionals with graduate degrees — who feel that they do not have enough money to adopt a baby. (I know these costs well; I am an adoptive father.)

If this is the argument for compassion and social justice, these examples will not resonate with the noncollege-educated, working class who already feel pinched by other debts for which no such magical relief is available, such as medical bills and housing.

Democrats might counter that minority students, not middle-class whites, would disproportionately benefit because they are more likely to carry student debts as a group. But most of the beneficiaries overall would be college-educated whites, and at $50,000 a pop, these would be students who made some pretty expensive choices. (The average undergraduate leaves college with more than $30,000 in debt.)

To his credit, Biden seems to understand this problem, and he has said explicitly that he cannot support a plan that ends up subsidizing Ivy League educations. Schumer and Warren nonetheless seem determined to walk right into that political buzz saw.

Second, it is a bad idea (in both politics and military strategy) to pay for the same victories twice. If the goal is to expand the Democratic coalition, then rewarding a group that is already tilting to the Democratic Party — college-educated voters — while shrugging at people who are going broke from major illnesses and other unavoidable problems is the wrong way to do it.

It’s one thing to shore up the base; it’s another to alienate gettable voters while doing so.

Third, the insistence that this be done by executive order — a habit both parties must break — without any significant legislative reform around education debt (which might include reforming bankruptcy laws, abolishing interest or even, perish the thought, making the colleges partly responsible for a situation they have helped create) means that there is no way to present this plan as anything other than a one-time voter buyout. Biden, wisely, prefers a legislative solution, but last week White House chief of staff Ron Klain said the administration is looking into the extent of the president's legal authority on the issue.

Joe Biden should hold firm

Democrats should not underestimate how a push to eliminate debt by fiat will create resentment in every direction — among people who didn’t go to college and have crippling debts of other kinds, among those who went but who made choices to go without incurring major debt, among those who went and paid off their debts, and perhaps most worrisome, among future voters who will never get the same deal.

Unless the plan is to engage in cyclical bailouts of student debt, future generations will continue to struggle while they have to hear about the one golden day of The Great Forgiveness, which was bestowed on middle-class Democrats and then vanished into the mists of history — and the Republicans will make sure that today’s college students remember it that way years from now.

Reform is what we need: I took out student loans with eyes wide open, but too many degrees aren't worth the debt

College is too expensive for many reasons, but waving a benevolent hand and simply obliterating debt will create social antagonism, undermine the basic virtue of paying one’s debts and perhaps most important, in the short term, hurt the ability of the Democratic Party to defend control of the government from the utterly mendacious Republicans.

With all the problems facing the United States in 2021, is student loan forgiveness worth the political capital the Democrats are going to have to spend to get it? Biden doesn’t seem to think so, and he should hold firm.

Tom Nichols, a member of USA TODAY's Board of Contributors, is the author of “Our Own Worst Enemy: The Assault from within on Modern Democracy,” coming in August. Follow him on Twitter: @RadioFreeTom
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by Bubba »

People go to college for an education that is supposed to help them earn a higher income than high school alone. If they take on debt it should provide a return on the investment. If a choice of major at their school of choice doesn’t give them the opportunity to earn enough to cover the debt taken on, whose fault is that?
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

Bubba wrote: Apr 14th, '21, 10:03 People go to college for an education that is supposed to help them earn a higher income than high school alone. If they take on debt it should provide a return on the investment. If a choice of major at their school of choice doesn’t give them the opportunity to earn enough to cover the debt taken on, whose fault is that?
Is this rhetorical? It's the student's fault, $.02
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by deadheadskier »

Counter point. Should Universities be allowed to offer loans on degrees that do not provide credentials towards a career with a reasonable expectation of earnings that can repay the loan.

If mom and dad want to pay for a liberal arts or creative writing degree for junior, that's one thing. But Universities should not be trying to increase enrollment through such degrees by offering six figure loans.

There is definitely some culpability by Universities in the nations massive student loan debt and it's impact on tuition increases.
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by easyrider16 »

deadheadskier wrote: Apr 14th, '21, 11:06 There is definitely some culpability by Universities in the nations massive student loan debt and it's impact on tuition increases.
I tend to agree with this, but I don't think it's terribly fair that the rest of us should have to pay for it. When these loans get forgiven it means the Federal Government doesn't get paid back. Is there a way we can hold universities accountable to some degree? Maybe some sort of tax levy to pay for loan forgiveness?

I think the better strategy is to reform the system. Set up a system like they have in the U.K. where you have to test into publicly funded university, but if you do, you get the full bill paid. Those that don't test in can choose to pay for private college / university, or go do something else like a trade. Give poor people opportunity and options for everyone else.

An aside - I once told a friend that college/university is a trade school. You go there to get trained for a future occupation, and there should be an ROI consideration. She vehemently disagreed. She said college was about bettering yourself and exploring the world. A lot of people see it the way she sees it. I think a lot of kids have been sold a bill of goods. Professors who have a vested interest in promoting their departments tell impressionable kids that businesses want kids with Philosophy degrees, for instance, and the kids believe them. Until they graduate and realize there's no Philosophy factory willing to employ them.
Last edited by easyrider16 on Apr 14th, '21, 11:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

deadheadskier wrote: Apr 14th, '21, 11:06 Counter point. Should Universities be allowed to offer loans on degrees that do not provide credentials towards a career with a reasonable expectation of earnings that can repay the loan.

If mom and dad want to pay for a liberal arts or creative writing degree for junior, that's one thing. But Universities should not be trying to increase enrollment through such degrees by offering six figure loans.

There is definitely some culpability by Universities in the nations massive student loan debt and it's impact on tuition increases.
I think state/private loans should be permitted for any college degree. I think personal responsibility needs to be placed at the borrowers feet and not be shifted to the loan sponsor. Most these loans require a cosigner (often a parent). Parents and students need to make prudent decisions.

As someone who had higher student loan debt via private loans, personal finance was absent from my High School curriculum. I think adding it would be helpful (if it's not already) and prepares student for the financial reality of the real world.

The tuition increases are insane and definitely driven by how easy it is for a student to get $. Students and their parents have to be more prudent in selecting a school and major that provides ROI. We have a status culture, which doesn't help ...
easyrider16 wrote: Apr 14th, '21, 11:29I think the better strategy is to reform the system. Set up a system like they have in the U.K. where you have to test into publicly funded university, but if you do, you get the full bill paid. Those that don't test in can choose to pay for private college / university, or go do something else like a trade. Give poor people opportunity and options for everyone else.
Phew. I can only imagine the reaction.
easyrider16 wrote: Apr 14th, '21, 11:29An aside - I once told a friend that college/university is a trade school. You go there to get trained for a future occupation, and there should be an ROI consideration. She vehemently disagreed. She said college was about bettering yourself and exploring the world. A lot of people see it the way she sees it. I think a lot of kids have been sold a bill of goods. Professors who have a vested interest in promoting their departments tell impressionable kids that businesses want kids with Philosophy degrees, for instance, and the kids believe them. Until they graduate and realize there's no Philosophy factory willing to employ them.
I see it like you do. I went to county college the first two years to save on tuition costs and then was a commuter student at Uni. I always viewed post-college as the time to explore the world ... that's what I did on company dime.
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by deadheadskier »

XJ

I would agree with you except that often times parents and prospective students both aren't very astute financially and don't truly grasp the repercussions of taking on so much debt.

I do not support loan forgiveness though outside of maybe more favorable rates. I don't think governments should be profiting on student loan interest.
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by easyrider16 »

I'm not normal. I actually did an amortization calculation to figure out approximately what my student loan payments would be, and then evaluated that based on my expected starting income. That made me really carefully about how much I borrowed. I can tell you 99% of kids/parents do nothing like that. Most I talked to just assumed, well, other people have done it, and they seem to be doing fine, so I'll be fine, too. Then when they graduate and the first bill comes, they had no idea they would have been expected to pay that much.

You know one reason why millennials are so insistent about getting paid more than employers think they're worth? They're likely trying to meet a monthly student loan payment that they thought would be easy to pay. I can see why someone in that position would think the system was rigged against them. It is, even if some of us were smart enough to get through it unscathed. We should treat our kids better than that.
Last edited by easyrider16 on Apr 14th, '21, 12:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

deadheadskier wrote: Apr 14th, '21, 11:49 XJ

I would agree with you except that often times parents and prospective students both aren't very astute financially and don't truly grasp the repercussions of taking on so much debt.
I think that's where we need a fix. Personal finance class your junior year of high school.
easyrider16 wrote: Apr 14th, '21, 12:17 I'm not normal. I actually did an amortization calculation to figure out approximately what my student loan payments would be, and then evaluated that based on my expected starting income. That made me really carefully about how much I borrowed. I can tell you 99% of kids/parents do nothing like that. Most I talked to just assumed, well, other people have done it, and they seem to be doing fine, so I'll be fine, too. Then when they graduate and the first bill comes, they had no idea they would have been expected to pay that much.

You know one reason why millennials are so insistent about getting paid more than employers think they're worth? They're likely trying to meet a monthly student loan payment that they thought would be easy to pay. I can see why someone in that position would think the system was rigged against them. It is, even if some of us were smart enough to get through it unscathed.
You doing a college loan amortization doesn't surprise me in the least.

My parents and I knew I was going into a hot field and assumed I'd be able to cover the debt. I/we were right, but it was more luck than proper planning.

Are student loans THAT crippling for millennials (I'm technically one)? My private loans ran me ~$6500/yr (on $75k of debt, average is ~$30k or about $2.5k/yr) or about the same as a new car payment. I think millennials might be asking for more than they're worth because college debt isn't their only debt. Over half of millennials have <$5k in their savings and ~40% of millennials don’t save for retirement at all (keep in mind about 50% of millennials are still living at home to boot). $02, it's a combination of poor career choice, financial irresponsibility, spending beyond their means, and unrealistic expectations.
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by easyrider16 »

Millenials also make a lot less than boomers, on average, compared to when boomers were in similar position. I think the number I saw was 20% less. When you're barely able to pay the bills, an extra car payment worth of debt can be crippling.

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/05/millenn ... cated.html

Just from my personal experience, I'm in a field that requires a grad degree. Many I graduated with had in excess of $150k of student debt. Some had payments that looked like mortgage payments. It was absurd.
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by throbster »

I blame the institutions that pay people like Elizabeth (Pocahontas) Warren $450k for teaching one course.
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by XtremeJibber2001 »

easyrider16 wrote: Apr 14th, '21, 12:35 Millenials also make a lot less than boomers, on average, compared to when boomers were in similar position. I think the number I saw was 20% less. When you're barely able to pay the bills, an extra car payment worth of debt can be crippling.

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/05/millenn ... cated.html

Just from my personal experience, I'm in a field that requires a grad degree. Many I graduated with had in excess of $150k of student debt. Some had payments that looked like mortgage payments. It was absurd.
Doesn't seem clear what might be causing the income difference. Maybe technological advancement? Slower GDP growth? Does the culture of millennials contribute?
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by deadheadskier »

Thought trickle down economics worked

Was Reagan wrong?

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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by Stormchaser »

XtremeJibber2001 wrote: Apr 14th, '21, 14:29
easyrider16 wrote: Apr 14th, '21, 12:35 Millenials also make a lot less than boomers, on average, compared to when boomers were in similar position. I think the number I saw was 20% less. When you're barely able to pay the bills, an extra car payment worth of debt can be crippling.

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/05/millenn ... cated.html

Just from my personal experience, I'm in a field that requires a grad degree. Many I graduated with had in excess of $150k of student debt. Some had payments that looked like mortgage payments. It was absurd.
Doesn't seem clear what might be causing the income difference. Maybe technological advancement? Slower GDP growth? Does the culture of millennials contribute?
The cost of a college education has been going up disproportionately to worker salaries in recent years. College costs 4x more now than when I went to school, and that's not all that long ago. Starting salaries certainly haven't increased at that rate. 25 years post graduation, I'm just getting to 4x my entry level salary. Though I'd say an education is invaluable, there is less value when getting an education today than a generation ago...
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Re: Don't forgive $50,000 in student loan debt.

Post by easyrider16 »

I think real wages for most jobs have been pretty stagnant, unless you're in one of a few hot fields. Automation is a huge and growing factor. Outsourcing overseas was a big factor in the last decade or two but I think that's mostly run its course I think. Stagnant wages plus increasing education costs equals lower standard of living for the next generation.

I'm right on the cusp, but I think I'm technically GenX. I think there are good and bad apples in every generation, but by and large people haven't changed. GenX, Boomers, etc were all considered arrogant and entitled by the prior generation, and then they turned to the next generation and called them arrogant and entitled. Same for millenials. I've met plenty of good hard working ones and plenty of bozos. I think macroeconomic factors and technology have more to do with the current situation than the attitudes of young ones.

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