Palestine

[throbster]

Dude, do you think that the resist movement may of built up resentment for Trump supporters? Outrageous claims of Russia collusion, impeachment 1 and 2, weaponized federal agencies against conservatives (thanks Obama) and finally, the highly questionable 2020 election results, have all led to the erosion of trust.

Throw in BLM, "mostly peaceful protest", cancel culture, tearing down statues, 1619 project, 47 genders, ridiculous and politicized Covid rules, and on and on.

And now we are supposed to be nicey-nice?

[easyrider16]

I think you shouldn't respond to things that are bad with more things that are bad. Most of us learned in kindergarten that two wrongs don't make a right. Let's apply that rule here. Be the bigger person.

[Fancypants]

Well, I think it's a bit more of a problem than a couple of people acting childish on the forum. This seems to be the political ideology Trump is pushing - if someone disagrees with Trumpism, you shout them down, insult them, and resort to physical violence if they don't shut up. This is the sort of ideology that led to what happened at Capitol Hill, among other places.

I see it as the Republicans attempting to counter the Democrat Progressive stance and their cancel culture. I don’t agree with EITHER. I do see it as a somewhat natural reaction. I am bringing it up because there is not enough push back on the Progressive front by general media that leans Progressive. People like to bitch about Fox, but they DO call out the Progressive overreach. I just wish more media would call them out too.

I see no place for it from either side.

Bingo! The pot is constantly calling the kettle black.

[XtremeJibber2001]

Well, I think it's a bit more of a problem than a couple of people acting childish on the forum. This seems to be the political ideology Trump is pushing - if someone disagrees with Trumpism, you shout them down, insult them, and resort to physical violence if they don't shut up. This is the sort of ideology that led to what happened at Capitol Hill, among other places.

I see it as the Republicans attempting to counter the Democrat Progressive stance and their cancel culture. I don’t agree with EITHER. I do see it as a somewhat natural reaction. I am bringing it up because there is not enough push back on the Progressive front by general media that leans Progressive. People like to bitch about Fox, but they DO call out the Progressive overreach. I just wish more media would call them out too.

I see no place for it from either side.

No doubt this is happening on both sides, but I think the nature and extent is not comparable. One side is playing checkers and the other is eating the pieces.

Is there something “the left” has canceled that you view as an existential threat?

[easyrider16]

Another key point is that both sides react to the extremes on the other. So for example, throbster is talking about the "resist" movement. I saw that as a far-left fringe group that didn't represent mainstream Democrats or moderates. I mean just do a quick google - first link I found was a gallup poll indicating 76% of Americans who voted for Clinton accepted Trump as the legitimate president in 2016. Yet to hear Trump supporters talk, you'd think the majority of people on the other side refused to accept Trump.

We need to stop having knee jerk reactions to the fringe movements of the other side. AOC is a comically fringe politician with almost no power in Congress, yet Fox news opinion heads talk about her on almost a daily basis. It's a little different, though, when it's the head of your party (e.g. Trump) pushing fringe ideas, and a large percentage of your group accepts those fringe ideas (polls show something like 70% of Republicans don't think 2020 election was free and fair).

Gallup poll link - https://news.gallup.com/poll/197441/acc ... ident.aspx
Republicans 2020 poll - https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/0 ... ons-435488

[easyrider16]

Getting back on topic, here's an interesting article from the CFR on how the current conflict lit off. Note that while technically this started as a private real estate dispute, there's a basic inequity in Israeli law that allows Jews to reclaim property their families once owned in the area but does not allow Palestinians those same rights. Note also a Jewish group marching through the streets shouting "death to the Arabs" and try to recognize that both sides of this conflict look a lot more similar than perhaps you've been led to believe.

Trouble has been brewing in Jerusalem for the past month. A combination of Arab attacks on Israeli Jews in the city; restrictions the police placed on Palestinians attempting to gather near Damascus Gate—a main entryway into the Old City—during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan; and a march through the city by a group called Lehava, whose supporters chanted “death to the Arabs,” all contributed to the tension that has spread across Israel. In isolation, each of these incidents was not unusual; however, they came at the same time as Israel’s courts paved the way for the evictions of six Palestinian families from a neighborhood in East Jerusalem called Sheikh Jarrah, and for Jewish families to move into those homes.

Israeli authorities emphasize that the situation in Sheikh Jarrah is a private real-estate dispute. That is accurate, but it only explains part of the story. Pro-Israel organizations have sought to change the demographics of East Jerusalem—which is predominantly Arab—for many years, taking their cues from successive Israeli governments that emphasized Israel’s right to build within its own capital. Israeli law permits Jews to reclaim property that they or their families owned in Jerusalem prior to the division of the city after Israel’s establishment in 1948, provided that they can prove ownership of the land. For their part, Palestinians cannot claim rights to property they once owned in Jerusalem or other parts of Israel.

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/how-evicti ... n-violence

[Bubba]

Now for a history lesson...

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/an-open ... KRRDw0YJdQ

[easyrider16]

One point I'd clarify from that article - Hamas was legitimately elected in 2006. Hamas and Fatah then couldn't agree to form a government, and they fought with each other for control. Hamas won. So while I guess it's technically true that Hamas violently ousted Fatah, it was more like a civil war than a coup. I think it's an important distinguishing characteristic though to recognize that Hamas is a legitimate political party in Palestine. I do agree that Hamas are not a good group, and with them in power peace is going to be a lot more difficult, or perhaps impossible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2% ... l_violence

[Bubba]

One point I'd clarify from that article - Hamas was legitimately elected in 2006. Hamas and Fatah then couldn't agree to form a government, and they fought with each other for control. Hamas won. So while I guess it's technically true that Hamas violently ousted Fatah, it was more like a civil war than a coup. I think it's an important distinguishing characteristic though to recognize that Hamas is a legitimate political party in Palestine. I do agree that Hamas are not a good group, and with them in power peace is going to be a lot more difficult, or perhaps impossible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2% ... l_violence

I imagine you believe that the vote was free and fair in Gaza?

By the way, I’d love to see your source for your earlier assertion that Israel uses kids as human shields.

[yiddle on da fiddle]

well?........were WAITING...................................

[easyrider16]

One point I'd clarify from that article - Hamas was legitimately elected in 2006. Hamas and Fatah then couldn't agree to form a government, and they fought with each other for control. Hamas won. So while I guess it's technically true that Hamas violently ousted Fatah, it was more like a civil war than a coup. I think it's an important distinguishing characteristic though to recognize that Hamas is a legitimate political party in Palestine. I do agree that Hamas are not a good group, and with them in power peace is going to be a lot more difficult, or perhaps impossible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2% ... l_violence

I imagine you believe that the vote was free and fair in Gaza?

By the way, I’d love to see your source for your earlier assertion that Israel uses kids as human shields.

I don't know if it was a free and fair election, but do you have evidence that it wasn't?

Re isreal using human shields:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pale ... FR20130620
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/w ... 83468.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield

Plus many other sources available with a quick google. Let me reiterate that I'm not suggesting that Hamas are blameless as they use similar tactics. My only point is that both sides have done bad things, and trying to pretend one side or the other are the good guys vs bad guys is a big mistake.

[yiddle on da fiddle]

as has been said SO many times....."tis better ...to be silent..and thought the fool.....than to open ones mouth.... ( and be...Cheesyrider)

[easyrider16]

Let's also acknowledge, Bubba, that the link you posted is to an opinion piece by a writer who definitely has a certain point of view, and is not an unbiased attempt at relating the history of the conflict. He does make many good points, but it certainly seems like he is putting forth the facts that support his particular view rather than trying to present a non-partisan analysis.

[yiddle on da fiddle]

what an asshat you truly are......

[easyrider16]

Did a quick google of the 2006 election in which Hamas was elected:

The National Democratic Institute (NDI) in partnership with The Carter Center reported "a professional and impartial performance of election officials".[31] The European Union delegation reported "there was nothing which would indicate that the final result was not the outcome chosen by the voters".[32] A CRS Report for Congress on the 2006 elections concluded: "The election was overseen by 17,268 domestic observers, complemented by 900 credentialed international monitors. ... The Bush Administration accepted the outcome of the Palestinian legislative elections and praised the PA for holding free and fair elections. ... The conduct of the election was widely considered to be free and fair."[41]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Pale ... _reactions

Also interesting was the exit poll results:

An exit poll conducted by Near East Consulting on 15 February 2006 on voters participating in the 2006 PA elections revealed the following responses to major concerns:

Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition
Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%
Under Hamas corruption will decrease: Yes – 78.1%; No – 21.9%
Under Hamas internal security will improve: Yes – 67.8%; No – 32.2%
Hamas government priorities: 1) Combatting corruption; 2) Ending security chaos; 3) Solving poverty/unemployment
Support for Hamas' impact on the national interest: Positive – 66.7&; Negative - 28.5%
Support for a national unity government?: Yes – 81.4%; no – 18.6%
Rejection of Fatah's decision not to join a national unity government: Yes – 72.5%; No – 27.5%
Satisfaction with election results: 64.2% satisfied; 35.8% dissatisfied[39]