Columbus Day or indigenous peoples day?

[deadheadskier]

I grew up in a very strong school district west of Boston in the 80s. None of the atrocities of Columbus were taught. He was only celebrated as this great hero that discovered America.

Is that how conservatives want to see things remain?

Why do you need to have this holiday?

[Dickc]

I question that many progressives seem to want an "Indigenous peoples day" If you look at the Indian's history in this country, they were no better than Columbus on their treatment of members of tribes they did not see eye to eye with. Maybe we should look for a worthy person to name this October day off for.

[Mister Moose]

And what of his world altering accomplishment? That should be ignored due to a character flaw that had different context in his time?

I don't think it should be ignored, but nor do I think he should have his own holiday. You can teach kids about a person's accomplishments along with his flaws. I think that's healthy. What's not healthy is celebrating his accomplishment while ignoring his flaws.

I also think the notion that his "character flaw" had a "different context in his time" is false. The people of his day well knew that what he was doing in taking slaves was morally reprehensible. See my comment above about the old testament Bible prohibiting this behavior. People had been calling the taking of slaves an evil for a great many centuries before Columbus was born.

Was slavery practiced by Columbus's country in his time?

Slavery in Spain can be traced to the times of the Greeks, Phoenicians and Romans. In the 9th century the Muslim Moorish rulers and local Jewish merchants traded in Spanish and Eastern European Christian slaves. Spain began to trade slaves in the 15th century and this trade reached its peak in the 16th century.

So of course it had different context.

[easyrider16]

Was slavery practiced by Columbus's country in his time?

Slavery in Spain can be traced to the times of the Greeks, Phoenicians and Romans. In the 9th century the Muslim Moorish rulers and local Jewish merchants traded in Spanish and Eastern European Christian slaves. Spain began to trade slaves in the 15th century and this trade reached its peak in the 16th century.

So of course it had different context.

Slavery was practiced in the U.S. in 1853 when 12 Years a Slave was published, yet many Americans read that book and were horrified by the practice of slavery. Just because slavery was practiced did not mean that people didn't fully understand the moral problem with it. Plenty of people were calling for the abolition of slavery in Columbus' day - read a bit more of the wikipedia article you quoted. Just going along with the majority view of the day does not excuse immoral behavior, especially when that behavior is something so blatantly wrong as taking free people and making them slaves.

In any case, what is the problem with teaching the facts? Columbus was a slaver. Let people judge for themselves whether that diminishes him as a person.

[Mister Moose]

Was slavery practiced by Columbus's country in his time?

Slavery in Spain can be traced to the times of the Greeks, Phoenicians and Romans. In the 9th century the Muslim Moorish rulers and local Jewish merchants traded in Spanish and Eastern European Christian slaves. Spain began to trade slaves in the 15th century and this trade reached its peak in the 16th century.

So of course it had different context.

Slavery was practiced in the U.S. in 1853 when 12 Years a Slave was published, yet many Americans read that book and were horrified by the practice of slavery. Just because slavery was practiced did not mean that people didn't fully understand the moral problem with it. Plenty of people were calling for the abolition of slavery in Columbus' day - read a bit more of the wikipedia article you quoted. Just going along with the majority view of the day does not excuse immoral behavior, especially when that behavior is something so blatantly wrong as taking free people and making them slaves.

In any case, what is the problem with teaching the facts? Columbus was a slaver. Let people judge for themselves whether that diminishes him as a person.

No problem with teaching the facts to add um... context. Yes, slavery existed in the US amidst condemnation. Got it. But just like Jefferson, Washington and countless others both had slaves and accomplished great things. If you visit Mt Vernon you'll see where slaves worked, and you'll see the residence of the leader of the revolution, the first president and "The father of our country". There are no perfect men. We can still celebrate their accomplishments, name a day for them, have a statue, and name a school for them. Greatness does not come with perfection.

[asher2789]

Was slavery practiced by Columbus's country in his time?

Slavery in Spain can be traced to the times of the Greeks, Phoenicians and Romans. In the 9th century the Muslim Moorish rulers and local Jewish merchants traded in Spanish and Eastern European Christian slaves. Spain began to trade slaves in the 15th century and this trade reached its peak in the 16th century.

So of course it had different context.

Slavery was practiced in the U.S. in 1853 when 12 Years a Slave was published, yet many Americans read that book and were horrified by the practice of slavery. Just because slavery was practiced did not mean that people didn't fully understand the moral problem with it. Plenty of people were calling for the abolition of slavery in Columbus' day - read a bit more of the wikipedia article you quoted. Just going along with the majority view of the day does not excuse immoral behavior, especially when that behavior is something so blatantly wrong as taking free people and making them slaves.

In any case, what is the problem with teaching the facts? Columbus was a slaver. Let people judge for themselves whether that diminishes him as a person.

slavery is practiced TODAY in america thanks to the loophole in the 13th amendment where it is illegal except as criminal punishment. cue private prison industry... cue war on drugs... cue capitalism... PROFIT!

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

[asher2789]

Only a moron would celebrate Columbus still.

We have a lot of morons in this country though. Somehow telling the truth about the guy triggers them greatly, which is a poor reflection of their character.

Yet you morons are cool with consuming oil from barbaric countries and subscribe to the ideology of socialism that has led to the demise of millions.

Columbus was a giant among men and will forever be celebrated by the majority.

how many millions have died from capitalism? (~120 million) why does nobody ever want to bring that up? and speaking of the millions killed by "socialism" lets not forget that the number is bloated with dead nazis.

also, being coerced to consume does not mean one agrees with what theyre consuming. that IS the critique of capitalism. there's no choice other than coercion. nice building up a strawman to tear it down instead of making coherent arguments. essentially your argument boils down to if you dont like the system go back to being a caveman. LOL. f*** child.

[easyrider16]

No problem with teaching the facts to add um... context. Yes, slavery existed in the US amidst condemnation. Got it. But just like Jefferson, Washington and countless others both had slaves and accomplished great things. If you visit Mt Vernon you'll see where slaves worked, and you'll see the residence of the leader of the revolution, the first president and "The father of our country". There are no perfect men. We can still celebrate their accomplishments, name a day for them, have a statue, and name a school for them. Greatness does not come with perfection.

I'm not sure I'd call any human being great. As you say, most are flawed, and many of those in leadership are flawed very deeply. I'm not sure why we need days and statues and schools named after people. Ideas like liberty and equality are far more important than any one person. Yes, we should learn about people who did important things in history, but we shouldn't be putting people on pedestals. Most individuals we celebrate are the product of large groups of people who made their accomplishments possible - e.g. Washington couldn't have done what he did without a Continental Army and the other Founding Fathers, etc. In that context, why should one man be the focus?

As to Columbus himself, I have yet to hear a justification as to why he deserves a holiday. I think he did more harm than good in his life, and his accomplishments in navigation are overshadowed by his dark motivation and deeds. The man wasn't trying to do great things, he was trying to get rich, and was happy to kidnap free people and sell them as slaves to do it. To me that is a far more important than the fact that he sailed a bunch of ships across the Atlantic Ocean, especially considering he wasn't even the first person to do it, and the feat was repeated over and over again after he did it.

[throbster]

HAPPY COLUMBUS DAY EVERYONE!

[Bubba]

For you purists, TODAY is Columbus Day. Monday (at least in Vermont) was Indigenous Peoples' Let's Take a Day Off and Have a Long Weekend Day.