Town Meeting Day and Tax increases

[GMCrra]

It's not apples to apples, almost every tax deduction has been eliminated for individuals since rates were that high and many states didn't start charging income taxes until 60s or 70s.

The government is collecting record levels of taxes of all kinds and spending even more! The wealthiest area of our country is all located around DC now, lots of pigs at the trough.

But back to VT, which has lost 20% of its school aged children but has not right sized staffing or programs to such levels, the spending is out of control. We have higher student to teacher ratios in NJ then VT and id take the schools in NJ over VT any day (im from VT and went to school here). Now they expect 2nd homeowners to pay higher taxes for a vacation property than we do for our primary homes? They'll kill the Golden goose, especially if climate keeps changing.

[Bubba]

It's not apples to apples, almost every tax deduction has been eliminated for individuals since rates were that high and many states didn't start charging income taxes until 60s or 70s.

The government is collecting record levels of taxes of all kinds and spending even more! The wealthiest area of our country is all located around DC now, lots of pigs at the trough.

But back to VT, which has lost 20% of its school aged children but has not right sized staffing or programs to such levels, the spending is out of control. We have higher student to teacher ratios in NJ then VT and id take the schools in NJ over VT any day (im from VT and went to school here). Now they expect 2nd homeowners to pay higher taxes for a vacation property than we do for our primary homes? They'll kill the Golden goose, especially if climate keeps changing.

Good info here

https://vermontbiz.com/news/2024/februa ... 7i2CG5Br7Y

From the article

The National Center for Education Statistics reports that Vermont’s enrollment in public elementary and secondary schools has dropped by 18,395 students, or 18%, from 102,049 in 2000 to 83,654 in 2022.

Yet, despite the above significant drop in school enrollments, the actuarial analyses of the Vermont State Teachers’ Retirement System for fiscal 2000 and 2023 indicate the number of active teachers in Vermont’s schools has remained essentially flat at 10,389 in FY 2000 and 10,618 in FY 2023.

Further, the National Education Association Rankings of States profiles Vermont as having the lowest ratio of enrolled students per teacher at 10.2 as compared to the national average of 15.3. Further, the Education Data Initiative profiles Vermont as spending the second highest amount per pupil on k-12 education at $24,666. The EDI profiles the national average at $19,380.

Regarding taxpayer burdens, the Legislature’s “FY 2000 Fiscal Facts” profiles the Education Fund as providing $420.2 million in revenues toward k-12 education appropriations. For the current fiscal year 2023, the Legislature’s Joint Fiscal Office reports that amount has increased to $1.92 billion.

[KingsFourMan]

It's not apples to apples, almost every tax deduction has been eliminated for individuals since rates were that high and many states didn't start charging income taxes until 60s or 70s.

The government is collecting record levels of taxes of all kinds and spending even more! The wealthiest area of our country is all located around DC now, lots of pigs at the trough.

But back to VT, which has lost 20% of its school aged children but has not right sized staffing or programs to such levels, the spending is out of control. We have higher student to teacher ratios in NJ then VT and id take the schools in NJ over VT any day (im from VT and went to school here). Now they expect 2nd homeowners to pay higher taxes for a vacation property than we do for our primary homes? They'll kill the Golden goose, especially if climate keeps changing.

We have 22 acres in Plymouth that we bought 21 years ago. It was raw land when we bought it and we had no idea that it had spectacular long range views because it was so heavily wooded. I’ve spent the past 21 years pouring sweat equity into it clearing a long driveway, a home site, a large view clearing and a large yard area. I have back issues now from all of that clearing but it has been a labor of love. I called it my chainsaw therapy which is exactly what it was. I built a small barn with some help from friends and neighbors, and we have a large slide-out camper on it that sleeps 8 that we use for 3 seasons. In winter, we stay in our neighbor’s guest cabin. Our kids grew up roughing it there and it's been a really fun, slow hard-earned progression with lots of happy memories.

We hired a VT architect last year and the plans are about 75% complete. The septic design will be completed this spring by an engineering firm in Rutland. Now that our youngest of 3 daughters is a Sr in college, and we are getting closer to retirement, we planned to break ground on our second home in about a year from now in the spring of 2025.

The house is 2,400 sf with 4 bedrooms and 4 baths and a full walk-out basement. I’m an engineer and a commercial construction manager and planned to GC the house myself. Because I’m not hiring a GC, I’m figuring $350/sf for a total of $850K plus design fees at $20K, septic system at $40K, underground power at $20K, and well for $5K for a total cost of about $935K. The 22 acres is worth about $200K. My assessed value will be well over $1M and my taxes will probably now be in the $25K range or more which is insane.

After 21 years of sweat equity, roughing it, and dreaming about building our second home, we likely won’t do it now because of these new insane taxes. Or what I will probably do is build it and then turn around and sell it and make what a builder would make on it which is about 15% or a $150K and then take our money elsewhere.

Instead, we are now seriously considering a 3-bedroom condo in CO for about the same amount of money, with far less taxes, that we can rent out when not there, near world class skiing, our oldest daughter in Denver, and my alma mater and college friends on the front range. In all likelihood, these new taxes will make that decision for us.

[spanky]

federal taxes on the wealthy went from 90%!!!! in the highest bracket around ww2 to a lower percentage than average workers pay. youre being ROBBED.

We’ve never taxed wealth! Not around WW2 and not now.

Top bracket on income was 90% until it was lowered to 70% under JFK.

(Let’s try to keep this thread from moving to the Political Forum.)

My point still stands. An income tax at any rate is still an INCOME tax. Not a WEALTH tax! Raising income taxes does not solve wealth inequality.

[Big Bob]

It's not apples to apples, almost every tax deduction has been eliminated for individuals since rates were that high and many states didn't start charging income taxes until 60s or 70s.

The government is collecting record levels of taxes of all kinds and spending even more! The wealthiest area of our country is all located around DC now, lots of pigs at the trough.

But back to VT, which has lost 20% of its school aged children but has not right sized staffing or programs to such levels, the spending is out of control. We have higher student to teacher ratios in NJ then VT and id take the schools in NJ over VT any day (im from VT and went to school here). Now they expect 2nd homeowners to pay higher taxes for a vacation property than we do for our primary homes? They'll kill the Golden goose, especially if climate keeps changing.

We have 22 acres in Plymouth that we bought 21 years ago. It was raw land when we bought it and we had no idea that it had spectacular long range views because it was so heavily wooded. I’ve spent the past 21 years pouring sweat equity into it clearing a long driveway, a home site, a large view clearing and a large yard area. I have back issues now from all of that clearing but it has been a labor of love. I called it my chainsaw therapy which is exactly what it was. I built a small barn with some help from friends and neighbors, and we have a large slide-out camper on it that sleeps 8 that we use for 3 seasons. In winter, we stay in our neighbor’s guest cabin. Our kids grew up roughing it there and it's been a really fun, slow hard-earned progression with lots of happy memories.

We hired a VT architect last year and the plans are about 75% complete. The septic design will be completed this spring by an engineering firm in Rutland. Now that our youngest of 3 daughters is a Sr in college, and we are getting closer to retirement, we planned to break ground on our second home in about a year from now in the spring of 2025.

The house is 2,400 sf with 4 bedrooms and 4 baths and a full walk-out basement. I’m an engineer and a commercial construction manager and planned to GC the house myself. Because I’m not hiring a GC, I’m figuring $350/sf for a total of $850K plus design fees at $20K, septic system at $40K, underground power at $20K, and well for $5K for a total cost of about $935K. The 22 acres is worth about $200K. My assessed value will be well over $1M and my taxes will probably now be in the $25K range or more which is insane.

After 21 years of sweat equity, roughing it, and dreaming about building our second home, we likely won’t do it now because of these new insane taxes. Or what I will probably do is build it and then turn around and sell it and make what a builder would make on it which is about 15% or a $150K and then take our money elsewhere.

Instead, we are now seriously considering a 3-bedroom condo in CO for about the same amount of money, with far less taxes, that we can rent out when not there, near world class skiing, our oldest daughter in Denver, and my alma mater and college friends on the front range. In all likelihood, these new taxes will make that decision for us.

I live in a high property tax town in NH with half the acerage on a small river, a little smaller house and my taxes are less than half of that. And it has a very good school syatem. Without the income or sales tax and an hours drive to Boston or Portland, ME. I hope to move to northern NH in a few years when i fully retire with a $4k tax bill or less.

And KFM, build a smaller house, say 1800 SF. Keep the camper for overflow sleeping quaters, it's proably paid for. Must be a pretty large septic for $40K!

[Big Bob]

It's not apples to apples, almost every tax deduction has been eliminated for individuals since rates were that high and many states didn't start charging income taxes until 60s or 70s.

The government is collecting record levels of taxes of all kinds and spending even more! The wealthiest area of our country is all located around DC now, lots of pigs at the trough.

But back to VT, which has lost 20% of its school aged children but has not right sized staffing or programs to such levels, the spending is out of control. We have higher student to teacher ratios in NJ then VT and id take the schools in NJ over VT any day (im from VT and went to school here). Now they expect 2nd homeowners to pay higher taxes for a vacation property than we do for our primary homes? They'll kill the Golden goose, especially if climate keeps changing.

Good info here

https://vermontbiz.com/news/2024/februa ... 7i2CG5Br7Y

From the article

The National Center for Education Statistics reports that Vermont’s enrollment in public elementary and secondary schools has dropped by 18,395 students, or 18%, from 102,049 in 2000 to 83,654 in 2022.

Yet, despite the above significant drop in school enrollments, the actuarial analyses of the Vermont State Teachers’ Retirement System for fiscal 2000 and 2023 indicate the number of active teachers in Vermont’s schools has remained essentially flat at 10,389 in FY 2000 and 10,618 in FY 2023.

Further, the National Education Association Rankings of States profiles Vermont as having the lowest ratio of enrolled students per teacher at 10.2 as compared to the national average of 15.3. Further, the Education Data Initiative profiles Vermont as spending the second highest amount per pupil on k-12 education at $24,666. The EDI profiles the national average at $19,380.

Regarding taxpayer burdens, the Legislature’s “FY 2000 Fiscal Facts” profiles the Education Fund as providing $420.2 million in revenues toward k-12 education appropriations. For the current fiscal year 2023, the Legislature’s Joint Fiscal Office reports that amount has increased to $1.92 billion.

Enrollment declines are starting to hit at the university level. UNH has declining enrollments and a $14 million deficit. They have already had one round of layoffs.
VT needs to consolidate their small schools with small enrollments and have a reality check. It will result in longer bus rides for some, butt you have to do this or it will become even more unaffordable. Educators have a hard time right sizing. A $1.5 billion dolar increase in 4 years is unbeleivable! When I went to elementary school we had at least 30 kids in a clasroom and we learned!

[Pedro]

federal taxes on the wealthy went from 90%!!!! in the highest bracket around ww2 to a lower percentage than average workers pay. youre being ROBBED.

We’ve never taxed wealth! Not around WW2 and not now.

Top bracket on income was 90% until it was lowered to 70% under JFK.

(Let’s try to keep this thread from moving to the Political Forum.)

My point still stands. An income tax at any rate is still an INCOME tax. Not a WEALTH tax! Raising income taxes does not solve wealth inequality.

Wealthy individuals often have strategies to mitigate their tax exposure, such as borrowing against their investment portfolios. This allows them to use the loans for living expenses while avoiding capital gains taxes, and potentially deducting the interest paid on these loans from their taxable income. This exemplifies how raising income taxes doesn't directly tackle wealth inequality, as those with significant wealth can navigate around higher income taxes without diminishing their wealth......at least that is what my butler tells me.

[Finn]

K town vote for a new select person.
Jim Haff has had 6 years now and the expenses are increasing for all taxpayers in K.
Give Andrew G a chance to make a change. A new view point is needed.
Remember the select person isn’t a permanent job.

Also the town hired his wife as the new finance director

I don’t vote ion K town, but my partner does.

[GMCrra]

I was thinking of building in VT too, if they raise taxes 30% it will be a bleed down of property values until the next assessment in 6 - 10 years just like after 2009. Why would I invest further in VT?

We had way more than 10 kids per teacher in class when I went to school in VT too. I dont get VT, they elect a moderate republican like Scott that most seems to like but elect the most left wing local representatives with super majority. You have Elizabeth Warren wannabees like Emilie Kornhesier pushing for equal outcomes and wealth taxes, getting national press. The truly wealthy have plenty of mobility and their VT place may only be one of multiple homes. Instead these virtue-signaling fleece the rich policies just discourage outsiders from moving to VT (unless you are moving to Burlington looking for handouts), as the places most affluent families would want to move or buy just wont pencil financially. So VT will end up with the poor and a few of those wealthy enough to suck up the costs for awhile while their kid goes to private college in Boston or something. The middle will continue to hollow out. Lets face it, even with work from home options, are you going to pick a VT school district over NJ, MA, NH, CT etc if taxes are the same or higher in VT?

Redistributive policies are like booze, it feels good for awhile until the host gets sloppy drunk and everyone leaves the party.

[Big Bob]

The 3 northern New England states have a combined population like 3.2 million people with 3 seperate state governments. And people wonder why taxes are high around here. Local control is expensive. Most states have county school systems, not multiple districts with very small populations along with every small town having duplicate public works, libriaries, etc. Usually all paid for by property taxes.

[GMCrra]

Local control is expensive, but I dont really have a problem with that. Let people congregrate and run towns the way they want, you can choose to live there or not. In my view its really Act 250, Act 60 and drugs at the source of most of VT's issues - they've all discouraged economic development of the state and led to a housing crisis, labor shortage and lack of working middle and upper middle families and household formation everywhere outside of Chittenden county. Too much meddling leads to unbalanced communities and perverse incentives. Its family and community that drive outcomes not redistributing money from "wealthy" towns to poor ones.

[hillbangin]

It's not apples to apples, almost every tax deduction has been eliminated for individuals since rates were that high and many states didn't start charging income taxes until 60s or 70s.

The government is collecting record levels of taxes of all kinds and spending even more! The wealthiest area of our country is all located around DC now, lots of pigs at the trough.

But back to VT, which has lost 20% of its school aged children but has not right sized staffing or programs to such levels, the spending is out of control. We have higher student to teacher ratios in NJ then VT and id take the schools in NJ over VT any day (im from VT and went to school here). Now they expect 2nd homeowners to pay higher taxes for a vacation property than we do for our primary homes? They'll kill the Golden goose, especially if climate keeps changing.

Good info here

https://vermontbiz.com/news/2024/februa ... 7i2CG5Br7Y

From the article

The National Center for Education Statistics reports that Vermont’s enrollment in public elementary and secondary schools has dropped by 18,395 students, or 18%, from 102,049 in 2000 to 83,654 in 2022.

Yet, despite the above significant drop in school enrollments, the actuarial analyses of the Vermont State Teachers’ Retirement System for fiscal 2000 and 2023 indicate the number of active teachers in Vermont’s schools has remained essentially flat at 10,389 in FY 2000 and 10,618 in FY 2023.

Further, the National Education Association Rankings of States profiles Vermont as having the lowest ratio of enrolled students per teacher at 10.2 as compared to the national average of 15.3. Further, the Education Data Initiative profiles Vermont as spending the second highest amount per pupil on k-12 education at $24,666. The EDI profiles the national average at $19,380.

Regarding taxpayer burdens, the Legislature’s “FY 2000 Fiscal Facts” profiles the Education Fund as providing $420.2 million in revenues toward k-12 education appropriations. For the current fiscal year 2023, the Legislature’s Joint Fiscal Office reports that amount has increased to $1.92 billion.

Enrollment declines are starting to hit at the university level. UNH has declining enrollments and a $14 million deficit. They have already had one round of layoffs.
VT needs to consolidate their small schools with small enrollments and have a reality check. It will result in longer bus rides for some, butt you have to do this or it will become even more unaffordable. Educators have a hard time right sizing. A $1.5 billion dolar increase in 4 years is unbeleivable! When I went to elementary school we had at least 30 kids in a clasroom and we learned!

The kids are going south of the Mason Dixon and to Texas at an alarming rate.

And they will not come back after they are done with school. More taxes gone.

I believe UVM is if not the most expensive / one of the most expensive public colleges in the US for in state tuition.



Sent from my SM-S906U1 using Tapatalk

[Captain Hafski]

I'm expecting even worse where I live in West Bridgewater [part of Bridgewater]. My taxes when up 15+ % last year [partly due to over-run of new fire dept bldg]. Now they're gonna go up a) general VT education increase and b) new Woodstock school.

In the end, I'm betting our taxes will go up close to 50% over 2 or 3 years. Crazy.

What portion of your tax bill is the state education tax?

To be honest, I am not really sure. Looking at my Bridgewater tax bills from 2022 and 2023 they only break it down as follows:

- Munipal: This is the major source of taxes for the town. In 2022, this was 22% of my total tax bill. In 2023, this was 30% of my total tax bill.
- Local Agreement: Not sure what this is, but it's peanunts.
- Homestead Education: For me, 80% of my house/property value is "homestead".
- Non-Homestead Education: The other 20%.

In Bridgewater, there is not much difference in the Homestead / Non-Homestead education tax rates. The Homestead education rate is about 3% higher than the non-homestead education rate.

I have no way of knowing what portion of the total education taxes go to the town and/or the state.

In 2023, my municipal taxes increased by about 65%. Heard from town clerk it was largely due to new firestation costs.

In 2023, my total education taxes increased by about 6%.

I could be wrong, but I believed I heard that VT education taxes were likely going up something like 18% "across the board", whatever that means. I have also been hearing that our "local" taxes [was under the impression that this was going to be part of the education taxes] would also be going up substantially for the new Woodstock school.

Hoping to learn more at Town Meeting day.

[Big Bob]

Existing building can be repaired and up graded at a much lower cost. This is what an ajoing town to me did when a new high school was proposed. They also added on to the elementary school and where able to stay within their bonding capacity.

https://mountaintimes.info/alternative- ... _259d8lzYE

[Big Bob]

I'm expecting even worse where I live in West Bridgewater [part of Bridgewater]. My taxes when up 15+ % last year [partly due to over-run of new fire dept bldg]. Now they're gonna go up a) general VT education increase and b) new Woodstock school.

In the end, I'm betting our taxes will go up close to 50% over 2 or 3 years. Crazy.

What portion of your tax bill is the state education tax?

To be honest, I am not really sure. Looking at my Bridgewater tax bills from 2022 and 2023 they only break it down as follows:

- Munipal: This is the major source of taxes for the town. In 2022, this was 22% of my total tax bill. In 2023, this was 30% of my total tax bill.
- Local Agreement: Not sure what this is, but it's peanunts.
- Homestead Education: For me, 80% of my house/property value is "homestead".
- Non-Homestead Education: The other 20%.

In Bridgewater, there is not much difference in the Homestead / Non-Homestead education tax rates. The Homestead education rate is about 3% higher than the non-homestead education rate.

I have no way of knowing what portion of the total education taxes go to the town and/or the state.

In 2023, my municipal taxes increased by about 65%. Heard from town clerk it was largely due to new firestation costs.

In 2023, my total education taxes increased by about 6%.

I could be wrong, but I believed I heard that VT education taxes were likely going up something like 18% "across the board", whatever that means. I have also been hearing that our "local" taxes [was under the impression that this was going to be part of the education taxes] would also be going up substantially for the new Woodstock school.

Hoping to learn more at Town Meeting day.

Found this in the town report for Bridgewater:

https://www.bridgewater.vt.gov/vertical ... Report.pdf

Tax Rates: FY 2023 FY 2024 FY 2025 Change
Estimated
School Tax Rate: 1.7456 1.8759 2.1507 .27 14.65%
Town Municipal Rate: 0.5032 0.8182 0.7980 (.02)
Combined Tax Rate: $2.2488 $2.6941 $2.9487 .25

Your tax rates are higher than my town in NH assuming the desparities are about equal.