Real improvements for 08/09, what do you want to see?

[Highway Star]

This is in response to skiingsnow's "lowered expectations" post.....

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/vi ... sc&start=0

(skiingsnow - DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD!!! You are not welcome!!!)

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For 08/09, Killington has already stated that they plan to spend $6-10M. It's unclear if this capital only, or capital+other, or if they will even stick to this number.

They have also stated that they are interested in reconfiguring lifts, upgrading lifts, reconfiguring trails, upgrading facilities, in addition to upgrading/maintaining their snowmaking system....among other things.

They should have certain business goals, especially with the village permitting process coming up - more visits to the area, in particular.

As a customer, what changes would you like to see at Killington in '08/'09 that would cause you to stay vs. ski at another area, buy an unlimited pass vs. a blackout, invite more friends and family to the area, ski there more as a day tripper buying tickets, or book a vacation there.....things that would increase visits, depending on what segment of the market you are in?

What additional services would you pay for?

It can already be assumed that they will maintain the snowmaking and make minor upgrades to the tune of $1-2m, so lets not talk about that for now, unless you're suggesting somethign radical. Ditto for maintaining the lifts and trails. This thread is for real changes and upgrades that result in noticeable changes for the customer and an enhanced skiing experience!!!

Some possible bigger ticket options, IMHO...I would suggest one of these three:

1. Personally, I think the best money is spent at an initial phase of the interconnect. The permittting is done. They can put in the lift on the south side of Pico, cut a traverse from Ramshead and a few trails, and call it good. It's at a high enough elevation as to not require snowmaking, or limited snowmaking could be installed. Sure, it's not perfect, but it get's the job done for ~$2M, or even less if they were to relocate the DF quad. Enhancements could be made in later years.

2. A real early/late skiing plan would be another solid option. Re-extending the ski season is VERY important to justify a base village. Either an upper mountain lift of some sort (on Downdraft), or a K-1 midstation (possible!). Plus a proper deck on the Superstar pub with an event series to draw people up. Cut the operating schedule to long weekends.

3. Upgrade the Skye Peak Quad to a high speed lift (4 or 6). This is the next lift slated to be replaced. ~$4m, plus extras. Probably the least impact overall of these three options, but it certatinly would improve how bear/south skye skis. Replacing the Snowdon Quad would be nice, but I don't think it's in the cards for a few years.

Here's a few other smaller dollar items (under $1m) that would positively improve the skiing...pick 2 or 3?

1. Straighten the SRT or install the midstations. The existing towers on the Jug side could probably be used, and the cross bars changed.

2. Install a used double chair to service the lower Dreamaker park, or move the park to a steeper trail with better access (perhaps widen Wildfire by 50 feet, and make it half bumps and half park, side by side?). Honestly, I liked the park on Wildfire...

3. Shorten the Snowdon triple so that it ends at the top of Conclusion (to service racers on Highline, etc) or install the midstation. Improve the trail setup in that pod to provide more routes (split mousetrap and join it with lower bunny buster, make snow on interceptor, cut a narrow steep to the far side of highline, change the grade of lower mouse run so the return to the K-1 is better.

4. Reconfigure the trail layout around the K-1 Lodge, Superstar, and the Snowdon triple. Route traffic from skyelark around below the bottom of superstar, and provide a skiing path below KBL over to the K-1. Open the far right side of superstar to skiing. Re-grade the area around the snowdon triple. There's many things that could be done around here to improve the guest experience.

5. Reconfigure the upper and lower Canyon area trails. Specifically, grade and widen (slightly) heavenly traverse and make some snow on it, mark it as an intermediate route. De-emphasize upper great northern. (something, anything). Maybe some bridges?? In the lower canyon, prepare the closed area under the bottom of the quad for skiing and blow snow on it. Prepare the K-1 liftline for skiing, and re-open old lower cascade. Install a snowmaking pipe to serve the K-1 liftline and Flume. Grade a traverse from that side of the canyon back over to the canyon quad. This would siginfigantly improve the feel of that area, and open up some great terrain that is rarely skiable.

So, that's what I have for now. What are your thoughts?

[G-smashed]

I think you've got most of it!
The deck on the Superstar Pub and associated events is a major point in a lot of my rants and I think a practical way to attract spring customers and extend the season again.
Please, NO midstation on the K-1. Let's not turn a good high speed lift into a slow speed lift. I like the Bubba double from the top of the SRT to the top of K-1 for early season skiing. What about using one of thos under used doubles from Snowshed to do that?
Lower the price of beers in Mahogany from $6. to $4.50 like at Sugarbush!
Speaking of bars, rename Mahogany Ridge to Pat's Place!
That's all I've got for now.

[Humpty Dumpty]

I think you've got most of it!
The deck on the Superstar Pub and associated events is a major point in a lot of my rants and I think a practical way to attract spring customers and extend the season again.
Please, NO midstation on the K-1. Let's not turn a good high speed lift into a slow speed lift. I like the Bubba double from the top of the SRT to the top of K-1 for early season skiing. What about using one of thos under used doubles from Snowshed to do that?
Lower the price of beers in Mahogany from $6. to $4.50 like at Sugarbush!
Speaking of bars, rename Mahogany Ridge to Pat's Place!
That's all I've got for now.

You actually took the time to read that sh*t?

[icedtea]

hs, everything sounds pretty good. i do not know how i would feel about the additional mid stations and i like the fact the snowdon triple goes to the top so i do not have to paddle or walk over with my board if i want to bounce the k1 line because it is taking forever.

now how do we get these ideas to actually be recognized?

[RENO]

All this stuff has been rehashed over and over again. One of these days we'll actually get something from POWDR relating to some of the above.(maybe! ) Without it I can't imagine any village plans taken seriously by the town and state.

[Stormchaser]

Plant $10 Million in trees...

[Highway Star]

I think you've got most of it!
The deck on the Superstar Pub and associated events is a major point in a lot of my rants and I think a practical way to attract spring customers and extend the season again.
Please, NO midstation on the K-1. Let's not turn a good high speed lift into a slow speed lift. I like the Bubba double from the top of the SRT to the top of K-1 for early season skiing. What about using one of thos under used doubles from Snowshed to do that?
Lower the price of beers in Mahogany from $6. to $4.50 like at Sugarbush!
Speaking of bars, rename Mahogany Ridge to Pat's Place!
That's all I've got for now.

The midstation on the K-1 was Rogman's idea, but he suggested it in terms of using HSQ-type chairs and a conventional mid-station. What I'm thinking of is something that uses the gondola cabins and takes them off the rope. In theory, you would want a terminal that could be used or not used (pass through at high speed when not in use). So early/late season the cars would come off at that spot, then re-join the rope, but in mid-season it would run straight through. Maybe with some fancy engineering it could do both at the same time, but I doubt it. It would probably require it's own drive system for the mechanisim, but no new main drive. This would provide upper mountain skiing, without having to add another lift - best of both worlds.

I'm aware of Bubba's SRT-peak lift, but I honestly think it doesn't provide much more than pure access, and its not even a very good location for just that. I'd rather see a short lift from the intersection of double dipper up upper downdraft next to the peak lodge. Yes, use a snowdon double, or some sort of hybird lift (triple?).

[DrJeff]

Speaking of bars, rename Mahogany Ridge to Pat's Place!

+3

[rogman]

I'd love to see them do the area of the interconnect with a slow chair(s) and narrow trails, no snowmaking, sort of along the lines of MRG. It would offer a really different experience. If there wasn't enough snow, close it.

Killington needs a place built from the ground up for boarders, not some re-configured trail. Didn't like Wildfire, don't like Dream maker. Always thought the hill by the Skyeship Gondi midstation had possibilities. There's also that little lump (I don't think it's little Pico) that has good possibilities, in the interconnect area. Don't think you need vert, just steeps and space. I'm no boarder; I just want those trails back (I also want Lower Conclusion and Highline too).

Superstar deck & 4.50$ beer. I'm all over that! And Pat's Place works for me.

For early season, replace the K1 cars with chairs, drop the line speed to that of a low speed quad, and put in a temporary midstation. Might require a tower reconfig to get a short flat spot (but you aren't detaching the cars at the mid). Once the season gets going, drop the mid out of the way, and swap the detachables for the Gondola cars. Short surface lift to the top would also work. Poma or T, something that pops out of the way the rest of the season. Get 'er done!

[Highway Star]

For early season, replace the K1 cars with chairs, drop the line speed to that of a low speed quad, and put in a temporary midstation. Might require a tower reconfig to get a short flat spot (but you aren't detaching the cars at the mid). Once the season gets going, drop the mid out of the way, and swap the detachables for the Gondola cars. Short surface lift to the top would also work. Poma or T, something that pops out of the way the rest of the season. Get 'er done!

Aren't detachable quad chairs pretty expensive? You would think they'd be a couple thousand each.....? By the time you get those, build the midstation, and make other modifications, it would cost pretty much the same for proper gondola midstation or another lift....plus those options would work better.....

[laseranimal]

put a staircase on upper downdraft/cascade and tell people if they want to download, walk up the staircase


I like the idea of a replacement SPQ that lift is completely underutilized and the terrain it services is exactly what K lacks, long uninterrupted groomers.

I'd blow up the KBL area and start over again. Move the lodge 500 feet back into the parking area to allow for easy transition between SS and K-1

I've got some other thoughts but its not worth actually typing them out because Powdr doesn't give a rats ass what any of their current customers think.

[Stormchaser]

put a staircase on upper downdraft/cascade and tell people if they want to download, walk up the staircase


I like the idea of a replacement SPQ that lift is completely underutilized and the terrain it services is exactly what K lacks, long uninterrupted groomers.

I'd blow up the KBL area and start over again. Move the lodge 500 feet back into the parking area to allow for easy transition between SS and K-1

I've got some other thoughts but its not worth actually typing them out because Powdr doesn't give a rats ass what any of their current customers think.

Leave KBL where it is, but make it a mid mtn lodge...no drive up access. Kill most of the upper K1 lot and blow snow on it. Ski from Sky/Bitter around KBL to gondi or snowdon or rams head. Ski from snowden to snowshed around KBL.

[rogman]

For early season, replace the K1 cars with chairs, drop the line speed to that of a low speed quad, and put in a temporary midstation. Might require a tower reconfig to get a short flat spot (but you aren't detaching the cars at the mid). Once the season gets going, drop the mid out of the way, and swap the detachables for the Gondola cars. Short surface lift to the top would also work. Poma or T, something that pops out of the way the rest of the season. Get 'er done!

Aren't detachable quad chairs pretty expensive? You would think they'd be a couple thousand each.....? By the time you get those, build the midstation, and make other modifications, it would cost pretty much the same for proper gondola midstation or another lift....plus those options would work better.....

No doubt the more you get into actually engineering it, the more problems you find. For example, you might discover you need about 10' additional slack in the cable to make any of these approaches work. At the same time, adding another aerial lift is no panacea, either. Even a short one is expensive. Surface lift would be cheap, and I think the early season skiers would tolerate it. Even a staircase up from High Traverse. The boarders could use it the rest of the year...

[Highway Star]

For early season, replace the K1 cars with chairs, drop the line speed to that of a low speed quad, and put in a temporary midstation. Might require a tower reconfig to get a short flat spot (but you aren't detaching the cars at the mid). Once the season gets going, drop the mid out of the way, and swap the detachables for the Gondola cars. Short surface lift to the top would also work. Poma or T, something that pops out of the way the rest of the season. Get 'er done!

Aren't detachable quad chairs pretty expensive? You would think they'd be a couple thousand each.....? By the time you get those, build the midstation, and make other modifications, it would cost pretty much the same for proper gondola midstation or another lift....plus those options would work better.....

No doubt the more you get into actually engineering it, the more problems you find. For example, you might discover you need about 10' additional slack in the cable to make any of these approaches work. At the same time, adding another aerial lift is no panacea, either. Even a short one is expensive. Surface lift would be cheap, and I think the early season skiers would tolerate it. Even a staircase up from High Traverse. The boarders could use it the rest of the year...

Har.....a 300-400 foot long railslide with a staircase on upper downdraft would be pretty knar.....lol.

As is the case with everything, the best solution is that which suits your goals. All these plans have potential, but the cheaper ones end up looking.....cheap, and not working that well. The expensive ones possibly too expensive for what Killington wants to offer.

It seems pretty clear that they have the mindset that a plain vanilla 5-month season is enough for them - that's their period of maxium revenue with minimal cost. They don't think that the costs for adding to the season length are recouped either in direct or indirect revenue.

Somebody from the TOWN needs to get Killington to change their mind. Having an extended season is vital to having a thriving 12 month economy, and this has to be proven somehow.

Ideally, you want skiing 7-12 months out of the year, combined with mountain biking, golf, and other activities. Skiing is the anchor, the killer app. Summer skiing works in the alps and out west. This can be done by taking advantage of Killington's elevation, combined with high tech conventional and unconventional snowmaking. 10 fan guns and one IDE snowmaker could probably keep the top of Killington (above 3800 ft) covered year round. Add a short lift, 1000 ft long and 300 ft vert, and you've got a high elevation skiing area. If that's possible....pretty much anything else is. Question is, do they see the benefits?

[SkiDork]

This can be done by taking advantage of Killington's elevation, combined with high tech conventional and unconventional snowmaking. 10 fan guns and one IDE snowmaker could probably keep the top of Killington (above 3800 ft) covered year round. Add a short lift, 1000 ft long and 300 ft vert, and you've got a high elevation skiing area. If that's possible....pretty much anything else is. Question is, do they see the benefits?

On no, not this again...