Killington Skier Visits?

JerseyGuy · Post by **JerseyGuy** » Apr 30th, '08, 15:25

Anyone? Any news? Any connections?

The only thing still out there is a quote from a week-old Rutland Herald article:

Killington's season also came to an end Sunday — the earliest closing in many years. The resort is still crunching skier visits but a Killington official on Tuesday termed the 2007-08 season successful.

A spokesman [Maverick, no doubt -- Tommy Boy never does anything anonymously] noted a season pass campaign that exceeded expectations, a strong start to the season and a "significant increase in international visitations especially from Canada and the UK."

So other than yet another meaningless reference to a season pass campaign that netted "better" numbers than original projections they won't make public ("Hey! I won't tell you how many women I've slept with in my life, but I'll just say that, uh, I've exceeded expectations!"), a "strong start to the season" (apparently Maverick and Tommy Boy are now Mother Nature's spokesman, as well), and a passing reference to the same foreigners the crashing dollar brought everywhere else in Vermont... we got nuthin'.

Anyone? Anyone? Skippy, can you ask Maverick for numbers the next time you head in for your consultant's check, an ice cream cone and a scratch behind the ears?

Coydog · Post by **Coydog** » Apr 30th, '08, 16:16

For future comparison, here's some info on 2006 skier visits (among other interesting comments):

Karen D. Lorentz, March 8, 2007 wrote: Last year ASC had about 3.7 million skier visits, placing it as number three behind Intrawest and Vail Resorts. After the pending sales, expectations are for around 1 to 1.3 million in a good year, a number Killington and Pico together are capable of reaching. Powdr’s acquisition of Killington/Pico (795,000 skier visits in 2006) and Peak Resorts’ purchase of Mount Snow and Attitash mean both will likely move ahead of the downsized ASC in annual skier visits.

skiingsnow · Post by **skiingsnow** » Apr 30th, '08, 23:06

Given the lack of scanning, theres no way to come up with a truly accurate number. Many, many days of no scanning my pass. People skiing for free cus their express cards never got scanned.... People knowing which Pico lifts they dont scan at and ski all day free. The list goes on...

Doesn't matter, Ski visit numbers are not the measure of success.

Highway Star · Post by **Highway Star** » May 1st, '08, 01:25

skiingsnow wrote:Given the lack of scanning, theres no way to come up with a truly accurate number. Many, many days of no scanning my pass. People skiing for free cus their express cards never got scanned.... People knowing which Pico lifts they dont scan at and ski all day free. The list goes on...

Doesn't matter, Ski visit numbers are not the measure of success.

No...they are the measure of FAIL.

KILLINGTON = FAIL.

Coydog · Post by **Coydog** » May 1st, '08, 03:25

skiingsnow wrote:Given the lack of scanning, theres no way to come up with a truly accurate number. Many, many days of no scanning my pass. People skiing for free cus their express cards never got scanned.... People knowing which Pico lifts they dont scan at and ski all day free. The list goes on...

Doesn't matter, Ski visit numbers are not the measure of success.

The numbers do not have to be precise. If the estimation methodology is relatively consistent from year to year, then comparing visits is certainly meaningful.

So how do you define success – total revenue, net profit, management bonuses, customer satisfaction?

BTW, I agree with the sentiment already expressed that the culling of the insane crowds due to the cheap pass options offered at the end of the ASC reign is probably a good thing stated and achieved by Powdr this season. I expect the numbers will show skier visits down at Killington/Pico and this is not necessarily cause for alarm - at least not this season. However, although SP Land may take a different view, we all know that skier visits must eventually trend steadily upward for the town to justify construction of the village.

RENO · Post by **RENO** » May 1st, '08, 06:30

skiingsnow wrote:Given the lack of scanning, theres no way to come up with a truly accurate number. Many, many days of no scanning my pass. People skiing for free cus their express cards never got scanned.... People knowing which Pico lifts they dont scan at and ski all day free. The list goes on...

Doesn't matter, Ski visit numbers are not the measure of success.

Geoff · Post by **Geoff** » May 1st, '08, 06:33

I've never seen a business that didn't pay attention to market share and what their competitors are doing. It costs the same to run the resort whether 500,000 people show up or a million people show up. You run the same lifts. You blow the same snow. You operate the same base lodges. The difference in operating profit is huge.

Personally, as a season pass holder, I'm happy as hell that Killington put skier visits back to early 1980's levels. If they were operating the place properly, they'd be getting far more skier visits without needing to discount the product. In the Preston Smith era, a season pass broke even with 20 ski days. That's a $1,600 season pass with today's day ticket prices. People lined up to buy them. They expanded to Northeast Passage partly because they needed the parking. The main lots would fill by 9:30. Bear would fill by 10:00. Once Gondola base filled, they needed somewhere to put the cars. Those people are still skiing, just not at Killington.

kvtskibum · Post by **kvtskibum** » May 1st, '08, 06:37

Yeah and the base village was supposed to be started in 2008. How's that going for you Selbo?

skiadikt · Post by **skiadikt** » May 1st, '08, 06:47

skiingsnow wrote:Given the lack of scanning, theres no way to come up with a truly accurate number. Many, many days of no scanning my pass. People skiing for free cus their express cards never got scanned.... People knowing which Pico lifts they dont scan at and ski all day free. The list goes on...

Doesn't matter, Ski visit numbers are not the measure of success.

then perhaps you should be picketing the k offices demanding better scanning to prevent skiers skiing for free which ultimately gives them less "to eat".

and btw did you even ski pico this year??

SPORE · Post by **SPORE** » May 1st, '08, 07:30

skiingsnow wrote:Given the lack of scanning, theres no way to come up with a truly accurate number. Many, many days of no scanning my pass. People skiing for free cus their express cards never got scanned.... People knowing which Pico lifts they dont scan at and ski all day free. The list goes on...

Doesn't matter, Ski visit numbers are not the measure of success.

What is the measure of success?

You really should go take a business class or two.

laseranimal · Post by **laseranimal** » May 1st, '08, 07:45

Geoff wrote:I've never seen a business that didn't pay attention to market share and what their competitors are doing. It costs the same to run the resort whether 500,000 people show up or a million people show up. You run the same lifts. You blow the same snow. You operate the same base lodges. The difference in operating profit is huge.

Personally, as a season pass holder, I'm happy as hell that Killington put skier visits back to early 1980's levels. If they were operating the place properly, they'd be getting far more skier visits without needing to discount the product. In the Preston Smith era, a season pass broke even with 20 ski days. That's a $1,600 season pass with today's day ticket prices. People lined up to buy them. They expanded to Northeast Passage partly because they needed the parking. The main lots would fill by 9:30. Bear would fill by 10:00. Once Gondola base filled, they needed somewhere to put the cars. Those people are still skiing, just not at Killington.

Nobodies going to buy a break even at 20 days pass when the ski season is 4 months long

skiingsnow · Post by **skiingsnow** » May 1st, '08, 07:54

laseranimal wrote: Nobodies going to buy a break even at 20 days pass when the ski season is 4 months long

4 months long? Where? Suicide Six?

skiingsnow · Post by **skiingsnow** » May 1st, '08, 07:59

Coydog wrote:So how do you define success – total revenue, net profit, management bonuses, customer satisfaction?

Before: Remodeled Bathrooms.

After: $8.4 Million including a high speed quad, and a multitude of other upgrades, improvements, and maintenence.

Customer Satisifaction. For the most part, I believe this to have been accomplished. I think most people are like Geoff, happy with everything, until the late season thing. And I dont think most folks even care about that, so its all smiles.

skiingsnow · Post by **skiingsnow** » May 1st, '08, 08:02

skiadikt wrote:
and btw did you even ski pico this year??

Yep.

Geoff · Post by **Geoff** » May 1st, '08, 08:06

laseranimal wrote:
Geoff wrote:I've never seen a business that didn't pay attention to market share and what their competitors are doing. It costs the same to run the resort whether 500,000 people show up or a million people show up. You run the same lifts. You blow the same snow. You operate the same base lodges. The difference in operating profit is huge.

Personally, as a season pass holder, I'm happy as hell that Killington put skier visits back to early 1980's levels. If they were operating the place properly, they'd be getting far more skier visits without needing to discount the product. In the Preston Smith era, a season pass broke even with 20 ski days. That's a $1,600 season pass with today's day ticket prices. People lined up to buy them. They expanded to Northeast Passage partly because they needed the parking. The main lots would fill by 9:30. Bear would fill by 10:00. Once Gondola base filled, they needed somewhere to put the cars. Those people are still skiing, just not at Killington.
Nobodies going to buy a break even at 20 days pass when the ski season is 4 months long

Err... 5 months plus an extra "bonus" week. Don't make it worse than it already is.

But you captured the point I was trying to make... If you operated the resort properly, you could charge more for the season passes. With a 7 month season, a pass that breaks even at 20 days is a good value. Today's pass breaks even in 13 days. That's a good value for a 5 month season but they're leaving a lot of money on the table that Preston Smith used to collect. If the snow is going to be there anyways, you may as well spin the lifts and make some money off it. You can also start selling spring passes and create even more revenue stream. There is plenty of full time staff available to run the resort when they're only running a lift or two.