Damage at K

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Stormchaser
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Re: Damage at K

Post by Stormchaser »

jimmywilson69 wrote:
Highway Star wrote:Putting the building in place without relocating the stream is the failure...

However, I think we've all seen some very serious runoff up there when it's 70 degrees out, r*ining, and 4 feet of snow on the ground. The pipe under KBL flowed hard but never seemed to be overloaded.

What they got from this storm was probably a 500-year event....which is what some of the flooded neighborhoods in Rutland were classed as on their flood map.
I don't know what event they would've sized said pipe for, but they probably made it bigger than needed. As HS said, that pipe takes a lot of water in the spring with melt and r*in.

Most ski areas have culverts simliar to this. It probably wasn't a smart decision to construct a building on top of it.

Would have been an non-issue if the rest of the site was graded such that an overflow didnt reach the building...
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BigAirSkier1580
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Re: Damage at K

Post by BigAirSkier1580 »

I question how much grading would have helped. The volume of water overwhelmed everything, rerouting entire streambeds.

Perhaps though, at the headwaters it may have worked.
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Re: Damage at K

Post by Stache »

RENO wrote:
Believe it or not, there's actually a lot of people that think this storm was overhyped. :shock:
I'd like to bury them in that ditch or drop them in the Passaic river. Idiots!
40 some Million people in the path of the storm and ONLY 40 some deaths.
I would not say it was over hyped.
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RENO
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Re: Damage at K

Post by RENO »

rubigirl wrote:The storm was over hyped with respect to the "winds" which barely reached cat 1 speed. On the contrary, they paid little to no attention to the "r*in". There were some reports about how Vermont was already saturated and at risk for major flooding in the days leading up to time zero but these were few and far between; mostly because this aspect of the storm was expected to have limited effect on NYC, which in the minds of the MSM is the center of the universe.

As a dyed in the wool New Englander I have always ignored the MSM and figure that I am on my own anyway. We simply do not really matter to "them". They see most of as backwards, and only patronize us during foliage and ski season because that is when there is the most sensational news to report. You rarely see them here in the summer, or God forbid during mud season or stick season. They have no real allegiance to us and I do not expect anything to change because of this either.
If those winds did reach cat 2 or 3 this would wind up being the #1 natural disaster in the USA.
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Re: Damage at K

Post by rubigirl »

But what no one talks about is how many lives were saved by people staying home that day. I think if you check the statistics on the number of people killed each day from car etc. accidents and other events associated with normal daily activities you will find that ironically the storm have saved lives. You cannot have car accidents etc. when people are sitting at home. Of course a day when everyone was locked in their house doing nothing but breathing with no storm coming might prove to be even safer but would we really willing to sacrifice that much liberty for safety?
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Mister Moose
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Re: Damage at K

Post by Mister Moose »

Stormchaser wrote:
Would have been an non-issue if the rest of the site was graded such that an overflow didnt reach the building...
I think you can compare this kind of spiked water flow to high voltage electricity, aka lightning. Normal rules don't apply anymore. A single coil becomes a huge inductor. Normal insulators, when more conductive than the surrounding material, become conductors. Heat rises to vaporization temperature in milliseconds. Explosions from steam or other vapor pressure occurs at the conductance path.

Velocity is going to be a factor if a clog occurs, heck, it's a factor without a clog. Water will have the kinetic energy to flow uphill quite a ways at a clog site. To grade the entire area for this scenario would make the schlep around KBL way worse than it is now, as dikes would be in your way.

I watched a pond wash away in hurricane leftovers when the dam failed a while back. The outlet stucture was sized correctly for maximum flow, and it would have been fine given the amount of r*in, except it got clogged with sticks and leaves and no one thought to check it/clear it. The water rose until the earthen dam was breached and after that it went very fast.

My point here is that in peak r*in events you need to plan not only for the peak water flow, but for the trash that gets washed into the culvert opening obstructing the flow. The opening must be many multiples larger than the expected trash debris, ie large branches should be able to pass through KBL's culvert.

I don't think the design of running the culvert under the lodge was necessarily a bad idea. It might be the best thing for that spot to do it again, as an open channel would really impede the kind of congestion that occurs around KBL, both front skier traffic and rear car traffic. (Or whatever side is considered the 'front' of KBL). Imagine how annoying it would be to have a two lane bridge over an open channel where the busses now unload, or in front of the first aid entrance.

A big box culvert would be a better idea. Better still is a second pipe with an invert higher up than the primary that is only used for emegency overflow. That way most trash is collected at the lower culvert, and the emergency pipe can pass spiked flow. If memory serves, the old pipe looked to be 30 or 36 inches.

If this is a once in several hundred year storm, I'd think it's worth it to risk damaging the lodge again in a few hundred years, rather than compromise the best traffic flow design that you live with year in year out, day in day out.

Prior to '79 I didn't think tornados hit new england. Prior to 2011, I didn't think flash floods hit Vermont. Structures that have stood for 200 years were washed away. We are living through historic times.
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Berkshiregal
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Re: Damage at K

Post by Berkshiregal »

Stache wrote:
RENO wrote:
Believe it or not, there's actually a lot of people that think this storm was overhyped. :shock:
I'd like to bury them in that ditch or drop them in the Passaic river. Idiots!
40 some Million people in the path of the storm and ONLY 40 some deaths.
I would not say it was over hyped.
Ditt, Stache. I was amazed by people, in my area of MA, who thought it was over-hyped. When I showed them the 'hit' that VT took, they quickly stopped complaining. As I pointed out, if those winds had shifted at all, we could be in the same situation. One never knows!
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Re: Damage at K

Post by millerm277 »

rubigirl wrote:The storm was over hyped with respect to the "winds" which barely reached cat 1 speed. On the contrary, they paid little to no attention to the "r*in".
Agreed, and that's what caused the damage in NJ as well. There were absolutely no "snapped" trees. Just trees that uprooted and fell over because the ground was so saturated.
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Re: Damage at K

Post by rubigirl »

RENO wrote:
rubigirl wrote:The storm was over hyped with respect to the "winds" which barely reached cat 1 speed. On the contrary, they paid little to no attention to the "r*in". There were some reports about how Vermont was already saturated and at risk for major flooding in the days leading up to time zero but these were few and far between; mostly because this aspect of the storm was expected to have limited effect on NYC, which in the minds of the MSM is the center of the universe.

As a dyed in the wool New Englander I have always ignored the MSM and figure that I am on my own anyway. We simply do not really matter to "them". They see most of as backwards, and only patronize us during foliage and ski season because that is when there is the most sensational news to report. You rarely see them here in the summer, or God forbid during mud season or stick season. They have no real allegiance to us and I do not expect anything to change because of this either.
If those winds did reach cat 2 or 3 this would wind up being the #1 natural disaster in the USA.
"If"

The National Hurricane cCenter reports the statistical odds of that "if" for every storm and for Irene it was very low. Anything could happen but if it does not happen we must reject the hypothesis that it could as in this case. The problem with Irene is that the media (not the meteorologists per se) did not care to devote time to evaluating the potential impact of r*in on a rural area at risk for flooding and it did this because, for most of the areas expected to be impacted by the storm the r*in was not projected to be a major real problem and the only area where it could be was rural Vermont and in the mind of a NYC rookie journalist this is no big deal. That said "if" you listened to the meteorologists from NOAA etc instead of the talking bubble heads you would be getting the truth. I suspect there are quite a few meteorologist who feel bad about having things they said taken out of context and distorted by these "journalists".
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Re: Damage at K

Post by Katyski2 »

rubigirl
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Re: Damage at K

Post by rubigirl »

As a matter of fact this storm was over hyped if you were not impacted by it. On the other hand if you were impacted by it then it was not over hyped. It is matter of perspective and not everyone has the same perspective. Even as i drive across the state I see one place that looks like nothing happened and another that is completely destroyed. Overall the state looks fine but the areas that had problems had sensational problems. We are less than a week out from the storm and already life is returning to normal. Compare this to Katrina and you will see that this things can be much worse. What is important here is that once again the poorer areas of the country were neglected by the media until after the fact while NYC and the potential impact and Wall Street was given maximum attention.
Katyski2
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Re: Damage at K

Post by Katyski2 »

pwdrskier wrote:Anyone know what is going on, on rim road. Can't reach our maintenance Guy.
MY parents house is on Rim Rd. I was told by a first responder at Killington that the constable was down there earlier this week checking on people with medical concerns at the end of the Rd. She said my house was still there, it didn't seem that Rim Rd. had any significant damage. Probably just needs to a few holes to be filled and graded, but that is no different then what we deal with every spring!
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Re: Damage at K

Post by Marc Shepherd »

rubigirl wrote:As a matter of fact this storm was over hyped if you were not impacted by it.
That's a bit like saying there is no world hunger if you personally have plenty to eat; or there is no AIDS epidemic if you personally don't have the disease.
Compare this to Katrina and you will see that this things can be much worse.
Katrina was the #1 worst storm in U. S. history (or at least recorded history), and Irene looks like it could be top 5, which is still plenty bad. Even Katrina itself could have been worse. Anything can be worse.
What is important here is that once again the poorer areas of the country were neglected by the media until after the fact while NYC and the potential impact and Wall Street was given maximum attention.
I am not sure what data was available that could have led even a diligent media outlet to realize that this was likely to happen in Vermont. Even the state itself did not expect devastation on this scale. Weather is, by its nature, unpredictable. If a butterfly had flapped its wings a bit differently 3 months ago off the coast of Africa, Irene might have hit New Hampshire instead of Vermont. Or it could have scored a direct hit on Manhattan, which would have made what we're seeing right now in Vermont minor by comparison.

Until they know what is going to happen, it is normal to report on the major population centers. I don't know what else they could realistically do.
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Re: Damage at K

Post by rubigirl »

Common sense did lead to some early warnings which I personally saw at time but unfortunately I do not have the video clips of.
Cat 1s hit Florida all the time but due to the lack of hills and mountains the r*in and flooding with raging water driven by gravity and down hill momentum is typically not the biggest concern; r*in induced flash flooding in flat lying areas is simply not associated with the type of powerful currents and damage we had. The coverage of the winds associated with this Cat 1/Tropical storm were exaggerated by the MSM reporters who did not understand the potential importance of the r*in plane and simple.

We are sea going mariners and every mariner knows that a forecast more than 4 hours out is subject to change. But we also know how water temps etc. influence hurricanes and tropical storms......because you have to know this when you are miles off shore and ergo miles from any assistance. And I am telling you straight up they blew it. You do not have to believe me but for the record every mariner I know called this storms path and and risk for destructions to a T and we did not do so by listening to CNN or Fox news for our weather data; if we did that we too might be end up dead as a result of their informed BS.
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Re: Damage at K

Post by Mistergiff »

I agree some of the folks here (The Berkshires) have no idea how bad it was. These people don't even realize that their neighbors here did get hit by the storm. They just happened to be in out of the way places. The folks up in Williamstown that live along the Hoosic River certainly got hit hard, so did some places to the south. We were very lucky in Pittsfield, MA the Housatonic River at the height of the storm was very close to leaving its banks, we were very very lucky. Not over hyped at all.
Berkshiregal wrote:
Stache wrote:
RENO wrote:
Believe it or not, there's actually a lot of people that think this storm was overhyped. :shock:
I'd like to bury them in that ditch or drop them in the Passaic river. Idiots!
40 some Million people in the path of the storm and ONLY 40 some deaths.
I would not say it was over hyped.
Ditt, Stache. I was amazed by people, in my area of MA, who thought it was over-hyped. When I showed them the 'hit' that VT took, they quickly stopped complaining. As I pointed out, if those winds had shifted at all, we could be in the same situation. One never knows!
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