Bond Set

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ME2VTSkier
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Re: Bond Set

Post by ME2VTSkier »

Mister Moose wrote:I don't see the fraud. PCMR installed lifts while in lease negotiations. Negotiations fell apart. Is a judge going to call that fraud? Talisker had no duty to tell PCMR that they shouldn't recklessly spend money on large capital items during negotiations. More wailing from PCMR that the judge is going to rule against.
Where was it that it said they were in Lease Negotiations when they did the upgrades? They assumed the lease was renewed. Talisker supposedly accepted the continuing lease payment checks (and reportedly didn't cash them).

It's definitely spiraled out of control, one can't easily operate without the other. At this point in time it doesn't really make a lot of sense to add the terrain to Canyons, it's really only worth something to PCMR whom already has the infrastructure in place.

Why Vail ever entered into that lease for 25million is beyond belief, when the prior Canyons lease was for only 3 million, and they had no way of knowing if they'd ever be able to obtain the PCMR base areas for a reasonable cost. In all reality, how much is that upper PCMR terrain worth, to anyone BUT PCMR?
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Re: Bond Set

Post by hillbangin »

ME2VTSkier wrote:
Mister Moose wrote:I don't see the fraud. PCMR installed lifts while in lease negotiations. Negotiations fell apart. Is a judge going to call that fraud? Talisker had no duty to tell PCMR that they shouldn't recklessly spend money on large capital items during negotiations. More wailing from PCMR that the judge is going to rule against.
Where was it that it said they were in Lease Negotiations when they did the upgrades? They assumed the lease was renewed. Talisker supposedly accepted the continuing lease payment checks (and reportedly didn't cash them).

It's definitely spiraled out of control, one can't easily operate without the other. At this point in time it doesn't really make a lot of sense to add the terrain to Canyons, it's really only worth something to PCMR whom already has the infrastructure in place.

Why Vail ever entered into that lease for 25million is beyond belief, when the prior Canyons lease was for only 3 million, and they had no way of knowing if they'd ever be able to obtain the PCMR base areas for a reasonable cost. In all reality, how much is that upper PCMR terrain worth, to anyone BUT PCMR?
I'm not a lawyer but I agree - If Talisker didn't cash the check, wrote a letter saying the lease is expired the day after the lease expired , and didn't let them put the lifts up the summer after it expired- this thing would be over and POWDR would be out.

Is there a chance here that Talisker did not know when the lease expired - and figured it out after the expiration date - 6 months later?
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Stormchaser
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Re: Bond Set

Post by Stormchaser »

ME2VTSkier wrote:
Mister Moose wrote:I don't see the fraud. PCMR installed lifts while in lease negotiations. Negotiations fell apart. Is a judge going to call that fraud? Talisker had no duty to tell PCMR that they shouldn't recklessly spend money on large capital items during negotiations. More wailing from PCMR that the judge is going to rule against.
Where was it that it said they were in Lease Negotiations when they did the upgrades? They assumed the lease was renewed. Talisker supposedly accepted the continuing lease payment checks (and reportedly didn't cash them).

It's definitely spiraled out of control, one can't easily operate without the other. At this point in time it doesn't really make a lot of sense to add the terrain to Canyons, it's really only worth something to PCMR whom already has the infrastructure in place.

Why Vail ever entered into that lease for 25million is beyond belief, when the prior Canyons lease was for only 3 million, and they had no way of knowing if they'd ever be able to obtain the PCMR base areas for a reasonable cost. In all reality, how much is that upper PCMR terrain worth, to anyone BUT PCMR?

Upper terrain? It's nearly all of the skiable area at PCMR!
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Geoff
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Re: Bond Set

Post by Geoff »

hillbangin wrote: I'm not a lawyer but I agree - If Talisker didn't cash the check, wrote a letter saying the lease is expired the day after the lease expired , and didn't let them put the lifts up the summer after it expired- this thing would be over and POWDR would be out.

Is there a chance here that Talisker did not know when the lease expired - and figured it out after the expiration date - 6 months later?
Even for residential real estate, that's not how it works and there is endless tenant law protecting residential tenants. If you lease a house/apartment and the lease expires, you become a tenant at will. Your landlord is free to evict you. Cashing a month's rent check after the lease expires doesn't change that. Commercial real estate doesn't have the tenant protections of residential real estate so you don't have a legal leg to stand on in court trying to overturn an eviction. For residential property, you can delay it for years for various reasons and most states have limits on how much the rent can be increased. That isn't the case for commercial property.
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Re: Bond Set

Post by ME2VTSkier »

Stormchaser wrote:Upper terrain? It's nearly all of the skiable area at PCMR!
But evidently it's not the terrain where the cash register gets located ;)

Can't imagine why PCMR wouldn't have purchased it long ago (yeah, for $150k, why buy the cow when the milk is free?) or at the very least renewed the lease a bit EARLY?!
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Re: Bond Set

Post by Bubba »

ME2VTSkier wrote:
Stormchaser wrote:Upper terrain? It's nearly all of the skiable area at PCMR!
But evidently it's not the terrain where the cash register gets located ;)

Can't imagine why PCMR wouldn't have purchased it long ago (yeah, for $150k, why buy the cow when the milk is free?) or at the very least renewed the lease a bit EARLY?!
Basic managerial incompetence. They prove it regularly at Powdr.
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Re: Bond Set

Post by Geoff »

ME2VTSkier wrote:
Stormchaser wrote:Upper terrain? It's nearly all of the skiable area at PCMR!
But evidently it's not the terrain where the cash register gets located ;)

Can't imagine why PCMR wouldn't have purchased it long ago (yeah, for $150k, why buy the cow when the milk is free?) or at the very least renewed the lease a bit EARLY?!
They didn't purchase it largely because it is mining property was subject to an EPA order for environmental remediation. Talisker bought the land from United Park City Mines and spent the money to clean up the mine tailings. It's like buying property that used to have a gas station where the soil is contaminated. It's pretty big bucks to deal with the problem. POWDR didn't want to buy that problem from their landlord.
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steamboat1
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Re: Bond Set

Post by steamboat1 »

POWDR has agreed to pay the bond.
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Re: Bond Set

Post by Bubba »

steamboat1 wrote:POWDR has agreed to pay the bond.
http://vermontbiz.com/news/september/pa ... -286323177" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Bond Set

Post by Highway Star »

Barring any deals being struck, they are most likely to pay the other $19M bond amount in the spring, and continue to operate next year. That means appeals for the next two years plus, a final judgement $50M-$80M that wipes out their profits for the next two years or a messy bankruptcy declared by the PCMR holding companies that could drag out for another couple years. Vail gets $10M-$15M+ rent after the judgement, or buys out PCMR, or splits off the upper mountain.

None of this is good for POWDR or Killington's future prospects - we're looking at 2-5 years of low investment, no Village, Interconnect, etc. Might even be lean this year with regards to snowmaking, operations, and season length. So keep your fingers crossed for them cutting some sort of deal or selling off Killington to another operator. I wonder how the investors who hold SPLand feel about their investment not having any really prospects for the next 2-5 years, when it's already been going nowhere for 12 years....?
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Re: Bond Set

Post by ME2VTSkier »

Geoff wrote:
ME2VTSkier wrote:
Stormchaser wrote:Upper terrain? It's nearly all of the skiable area at PCMR!
But evidently it's not the terrain where the cash register gets located ;)

Can't imagine why PCMR wouldn't have purchased it long ago (yeah, for $150k, why buy the cow when the milk is free?) or at the very least renewed the lease a bit EARLY?!
They didn't purchase it largely because it is mining property was subject to an EPA order for environmental remediation. Talisker bought the land from United Park City Mines and spent the money to clean up the mine tailings. It's like buying property that used to have a gas station where the soil is contaminated. It's pretty big bucks to deal with the problem. POWDR didn't want to buy that problem from their landlord.
Yes, that was already assumed. I meant purchase AFTER the cleanup was complete.
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Re: Bond Set

Post by hillbangin »

Highway Star wrote:Barring any deals being struck, they are most likely to pay the other $19M bond amount in the spring, and continue to operate next year. That means appeals for the next two years plus, a final judgement $50M-$80M that wipes out their profits for the next two years or a messy bankruptcy declared by the PCMR holding companies that could drag out for another couple years. Vail gets $10M-$15M+ rent after the judgement, or buys out PCMR, or splits off the upper mountain.

None of this is good for POWDR or Killington's future prospects - we're looking at 2-5 years of low investment, no Village, Interconnect, etc. Might even be lean this year with regards to snowmaking, operations, and season length. So keep your fingers crossed for them cutting some sort of deal or selling off Killington to another operator. I wonder how the investors who hold SPLand feel about their investment not having any really prospects for the next 2-5 years, when it's already been going nowhere for 12 years....?
The village and the interconnect are way off because of the economy - nothing to do with UT.

They'll make snow - not worried about that.

I'm also more convinced that they are going to try to play this out through all the appeals etc - their only leverage is the fraud case they are trying to get a trial on - and there won't be a deal till then.

Not good all around.

We need that south ridge lift.

Maybe we'll get 300" and it won't matter this year.
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Re: Bond Set

Post by Mister Moose »

Highway Star wrote:Barring any deals being struck, they are most likely to pay the other $19M bond amount in the spring, and continue to operate next year. That means appeals for the next two years plus, a final judgement $50M-$80M that wipes out their profits for the next two years or a messy bankruptcy declared by the PCMR holding companies that could drag out for another couple years. Vail gets $10M-$15M+ rent after the judgement, or buys out PCMR, or splits off the upper mountain.

None of this is good for POWDR or Killington's future prospects - we're looking at 2-5 years of low investment, no Village, Interconnect, etc. Might even be lean this year with regards to snowmaking, operations, and season length. So keep your fingers crossed for them cutting some sort of deal or selling off Killington to another operator. I wonder how the investors who hold SPLand feel about their investment not having any really prospects for the next 2-5 years, when it's already been going nowhere for 12 years....?
The whole idea of triple damages in eviction is to give the squatter huge motivation to get off. As the dust settles and tempers cool over the next year, and appeals look thin, PCMR might not opt to place the bond for the second year. Cooler heads will decide that based on profitability when paying 15M in rent. There will likely be a ruling by then on lift removal or not. If the lifts are allowed to be removed, PCMR will need time to do the work, and that will interfere with staying open.

When you appeal, you don't get to retry the case. You don't argue the facts of the case. You argue that the court made an error on a ruling, or that some procedure was faulty. I haven't read anywhere any instances of Ryan's rulings being questionable. The fraud case will go nowhere. The eviction will likely stand.

While none of this bodes well for PCMR, we're still not sure if or how it will affect other PWDR resorts. The Cummings have deep pockets. A prudent businessman will not let all the apples in the barrel go just because one is going bad. The Killington revenue stream is worth maintaining, and that means continuing operations pretty much the same as they have always been. If the snow guns light up by the 3rd week in October, we'll know.

As for the interconnect and the Village - I see that as the 10 lbs we all want to lose. We all want to, we all say its just around the corner, but do we ever do it? If the Cummings and the Hunts don't do it, who will? Because it can't be about not having the cash. That means there is a reason not to do it. Wake up, Village People.
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jskivt
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Re: Bond Set

Post by jskivt »

Why would Killington build the interconnect when their snowmaking budget already gets blown without adding additional trail count? We've had a couple of years where they haven't opened every trail and/or made all the features due to snow making limitations (budget). Doesn't add up to interconnect.
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Re: Bond Set

Post by Geoff »

ME2VTSkier wrote: Yes, that was already assumed. I meant purchase AFTER the cleanup was complete.
You have the timing wrong. United Park City Mines didn't fix the mine tailings environmental problem. Talisker did after they bought the property. I'm guessing POWDR assumed that nobody would ever buy the land because of the environmental liability and they could continue to rent it on the cheap. Oops.
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