Expansion 2019-2020

[machski]

I think they need to switch the conditions report to actually show all the lifts and trails. Not sure why marketing has failed to do so.

I think it is stuck in summer mode. I say that because outside of the North Ridge Quad, the other three lifts showing up are all the summer bike park lifts,

[Mister Moose]

If Lower Great Bear becomes a mostly groomed out run, ...

Oh!.... OH!!! It's another big one!

[spiderpig]

One thing I've forgotten is that Killington also has to get Skyelark ready for the World Cup as well. I assume they've been blowing that similar to what they've been doing on SS, but I can't really see. What needs to be kept in mind is this is not the old ASC snow making system. POWDR has been throwing at least a couple of million a year for more than 10 years, and has really added up. The great thing about the World Cup is it is something that grabs John Cumming's attention: he wants to keep it here, and is investing to make sure that happens. The judgement call that Killington has to make in the short term is do they max out everything for the World Cup this week, or do they push for the bottom for the weekend crowds? If it weren't for the World Cup, they'd make it easy with the current system, but without the World Cup, that system wouldn't be here.

It looks like they've been blowing on the Ovation and Skyelark sides. Is it a fallacy that there is extra, separate capacity for the World Cup and that does not affect their public expansion?

[rogman]

One thing I've forgotten is that Killington also has to get Skyelark ready for the World Cup as well. I assume they've been blowing that similar to what they've been doing on SS, but I can't really see. What needs to be kept in mind is this is not the old ASC snow making system. POWDR has been throwing at least a couple of million a year for more than 10 years, and has really added up. The great thing about the World Cup is it is something that grabs John Cumming's attention: he wants to keep it here, and is investing to make sure that happens. The judgement call that Killington has to make in the short term is do they max out everything for the World Cup this week, or do they push for the bottom for the weekend crowds? If it weren't for the World Cup, they'd make it easy with the current system, but without the World Cup, that system wouldn't be here.

It looks like they've been blowing on the Ovation and Skyelark sides. Is it a fallacy that there is extra, separate capacity for the World Cup and that does not affect their public expansion?

I don't think they've blown on anything but SS; what you are seeing is blow over. There is more snow on Skyehawk than Skyelark at the moment.

The "separate system for World Cup" was one of those unfortunate remarks that has taken on a life of its own. It never made any sense, and no one in their right mind would want it. I can't even imagine what it would look like. Strictly speaking, would an entire separate feed line from Woodward Reservoir be necessary? Of course not. Were they going to build a new set of water/air lines from either Bear or Snowshed to the top of Superstar for this project? Nope (But who knows, they may have upped line capacity in spots). The most visible change is the addition of a lot more compressors. I believe this year there are 8 at Snowshed, and 13 at Bear. This is a lot more than pre-World Cup era, I recall it was as low as 6 and 6 at one point (I don't bother with records, I rely on my fallible memory). They have more than enough valves and gates to isolate both sides, and it is quite possible/likely that at times the Bear side and Snowshed side are completely isolated, with one side driving the World Cup, and the other North Ridge. I don't know. However, the systems can be linked and that's a good thing, because it means that while the World Cup build out may "borrow" some capacity from what is intended to feed the rest of the mountain, what has happened more often is that the mountain "side" takes advantage of the additional capacity once the build out is complete. Everyone wins.

[machski]

One thing I've forgotten is that Killington also has to get Skyelark ready for the World Cup as well. I assume they've been blowing that similar to what they've been doing on SS, but I can't really see. What needs to be kept in mind is this is not the old ASC snow making system. POWDR has been throwing at least a couple of million a year for more than 10 years, and has really added up. The great thing about the World Cup is it is something that grabs John Cumming's attention: he wants to keep it here, and is investing to make sure that happens. The judgement call that Killington has to make in the short term is do they max out everything for the World Cup this week, or do they push for the bottom for the weekend crowds? If it weren't for the World Cup, they'd make it easy with the current system, but without the World Cup, that system wouldn't be here.

It looks like they've been blowing on the Ovation and Skyelark sides. Is it a fallacy that there is extra, separate capacity for the World Cup and that does not affect their public expansion?

I don't think they've blown on anything but SS; what you are seeing is blow over. There is more snow on Skyehawk than Skyelark at the moment.

The "separate system for World Cup" was one of those unfortunate remarks that has taken on a life of its own. It never made any sense, and no one in their right mind would want it. I can't even imagine what it would look like. Strictly speaking, would an entire separate feed line from Woodward Reservoir be necessary? Of course not. Were they going to build a new set of water/air lines from either Bear or Snowshed to the top of Superstar for this project? Nope (But who knows, they may have upped line capacity in spots). The most visible change is the addition of a lot more compressors. I believe this year there are 8 at Snowshed, and 13 at Bear. This is a lot more than pre-World Cup era, I recall it was as low as 6 and 6 at one point (I don't bother with records, I rely on my fallible memory). They have more than enough valves and gates to isolate both sides, and it is quite possible/likely that at times the Bear side and Snowshed side are completely isolated, with one side driving the World Cup, and the other North Ridge. I don't know. However, the systems can be linked and that's a good thing, because it means that while the World Cup build out may "borrow" some capacity from what is intended to feed the rest of the mountain, what has happened more often is that the mountain "side" takes advantage of the additional capacity once the build out is complete. Everyone wins.

No, yesterday they were definitely making on Nivis Walk to Launch Pad, but just that loop back to SS from what I could tell.

[jimmywilson69]

Via SS webcam yesterday morning I also thought I saw some guns at the top of skyeHawk on SkyeLark

[snoloco]

They claim they will begin to expand to new terrain when snowmaking restarts tonight. Before a top to bottom push, they will need to finish Upper East Fall and GN from the top, and will likely also cover Upper Double Dipper, and Great Northern to Lower Ridge Run. Guns were either running or staged on those trails on opening day.

[DrJeff]

If the forecast for the next week or so ends up being remotely close to what happens, I highly doubt they'll be any questions about if they'll be enough snow for Superstar to pass pre-race snow control.

That main waterline along Superstar is about to start receiving a massive quantity of water flowing through it for sure!

[Big Bob]

Since temperatures at the bottom of Superstar the other day were to warm for snowmaking they started making snow on great Northern as they try and connect to the peak for ski down to North Ridge, skip the stairs on the way down. They were taking advantage of extra air capacity.

[hillbangin]

It's not going above freezing at 3500 feet for the next 7 days.

I think it's all going to work out........

[Mriceyman]

Plus some natural thrown in to help things out

[Highway Star]

One thing I've forgotten is that Killington also has to get Skyelark ready for the World Cup as well. I assume they've been blowing that similar to what they've been doing on SS, but I can't really see. What needs to be kept in mind is this is not the old ASC snow making system. POWDR has been throwing at least a couple of million a year for more than 10 years, and has really added up. The great thing about the World Cup is it is something that grabs John Cumming's attention: he wants to keep it here, and is investing to make sure that happens. The judgement call that Killington has to make in the short term is do they max out everything for the World Cup this week, or do they push for the bottom for the weekend crowds? If it weren't for the World Cup, they'd make it easy with the current system, but without the World Cup, that system wouldn't be here.

It looks like they've been blowing on the Ovation and Skyelark sides. Is it a fallacy that there is extra, separate capacity for the World Cup and that does not affect their public expansion?

They have a generally fixed pumping capacity across resort, IIRC it's something like 720k gallons per hour (12,000 gal/min) that was publicly quoted over a decade ago. That's enough to run 200+ snowguns depending on flow rates.

Could they focus all that on the top to bottom Great Northern route to get it open? Yes, I believe they have done so in the past. How much does Superstar take? IIRC it was about 50+ guns at once, possibly around 100+ including Skyelark for training. So in theory the WC prep could be taking up half their water capacity, maybe more, at any given time.

The capacity they did add is in rental air compressors. At marginal temps it allows them to run more guns when they would be otherwise be limited by air output. There is already a considerable amount of permanent air compressor capacity, the added compressors for WC amount to maybe a 25-35% increase in overall air, which certainly helps in marginal early season temps.

Regardless, if you look at how much they run the guns on the WC venue vs. everywhere else, it's pretty clear that public skiing is being sacrificed for the sake of the World Cup and the difference is not made up for by added capacity. They've lucked out the past few years, there is no guarantee of top to bottom skiing Thanksgiving weekend. Maybe there's not that much material difference because sometimes pre-WC era they held back with their output for budgetary reasons, with the big expansion coming in December.

[Mister Moose]

Is it a fallacy that there is extra, separate capacity for the World Cup and that does not affect their public expansion?

How much does Superstar take? IIRC it was about 50+ guns at once, possibly around 100+ including Skyelark for training. So in theory the WC prep could be taking up half their water capacity, maybe more, at any given time.

The capacity they did add is in rental air compressors. At marginal temps it allows them to run more guns when they would be otherwise be limited by air output. There is already a considerable amount of permanent air compressor capacity, the added compressors for WC amount to maybe a 25-35% increase in overall air, which certainly helps in marginal early season temps.

Regardless, if you look at how much they run the guns on the WC venue vs. everywhere else, it's pretty clear that public skiing is being sacrificed for the sake of the World Cup and the difference is not made up for by added capacity. They've lucked out the past few years, there is no guarantee of top to bottom skiing Thanksgiving weekend. Maybe there's not that much material difference because sometimes pre-WC era they held back with their output for budgetary reasons, with the big expansion coming in December.

I seem to remember that they typically brought in 10-12 additional rental compressors for the World Cup. Probably not enough to double capacity, but still quite an increase. That added capacity was the added 'system', I doubt there was ever any need or intention to separate the flows.

Superstar alone has well over 80 guns on it, probably closer to 100. Given the limited terrain on North Ridge, they probably can blow both and not be water limited. Once you try to expand farther than that, you can probably outpace capacity. But for how long? Once the bulk of the build is done on Superstar and Skylark, all that added capacity gets turned onto expansion. So while there might well be a weather scenario where the WC costs some expansion for some time, after that the pendulum swings the other way, and more than makes up for it. I bet the answer here is very similar to many engineering questions, ie "It depends"

[rogman]

I agree, Mr Moose. They will probably hit 100 guns on Superstar when it gets really cold by doubling up on some hydrants. And don't forget 7 fan guns at the base of SS. I believe they also have to cover Skyelark, that could be close to another 100 as well, so maxing out on water isn't out of the question at all. Keep in mind they want to make what we euphemistically call a "fast" surface: won't be dry guns. This much I'm sure of: it will be impressive.

[newpylong1]

Those two trails will not max out their water capacity as the pipe diameter is not large enough. There are about a hundred hydrants on SS - they only double up at the bottom to cover the finish using portable manifolds. I believe about 50 towers on Skye Lark.

Air is always the limiting factor in early season. At some point the curves cross and the opposite becomes true. They have 12 pads at each location and they are usually full. This supplements their in house electric for a combined 73,000 CFM. No one else in the US comes close to this much air capacity.

Yes, even with the additional rentals, the WC effects their expansion capability. But this assumes that they A) chose to lease that air regardless and B) they took a chance marching down earlier. Even prior to the WC they had a cautious approach to T2B. When others dusted and run and had to close K was able to stay open. Different philosophies.