expansion

[snoloco]

I don't think anyone has more than 12000 gpm. That's also what Mount Snow claims to have since the West Lake project. There's a reason why Killington still had more terrain open than anyone else this past weekend, despite the World Cup.

[iRock]

I don't think anyone has more than 12000 gpm. That's also what Mount Snow claims to have since the West Lake project. There's a reason why Killington still had more terrain open than anyone else this past weekend, despite the World Cup.

It's been marginal (for the most part) and K is one of the few resorts willing to spend the $$$ to burn diesel and pump air through the pipes, hence their advantage.

I'm not saying 12000gpm is small. But no ski area has more pipes than Killington...hence...for it's size...it's borderline too small a pumping capacity because of the sheer ground they can cover. Even in a good year there's trails that don't get their first round of snowmaking til February and of course there's usually a number of trails they skip over completely. This is why, while I'd love to see it...I don't see snowmaking returning on the Fiddle. It's why I kinda scratched my head when they re-activated the pipes on Conclusion. The capacity is not there.

Okemo and Stratton can get all their stuff covered by MLK weekend in a good year. Mount Snow hit every snowmaking trail before New Year's maybe the second or third year with West Lake.

[snoloco]

Then what you're referring to is gallons per acre, not overall pumping capacity. Smaller resorts have an advantage in that respect, since there is less ground to cover. I think you're gaslighting to some extent in terms of what the other resorts are capable of. I skied Stratton in late-February last year, and there were multiple, large snowmaking trails they ignored entirely, and others that didn't see their first round of snowmaking till February. As for Mount Snow, only around 80% of their terrain even has piping, which is less of a percentage than what Killington has, and they have smaller overall acreage.

[Mister Moose]

...and of course there's usually a number of trails they skip over completely. This is why, while I'd love to see it...I don't see snowmaking returning on the Fiddle.

The Fiddle is an "If we have time" trail. And ask yourself this - If Great Bear is now an early season snowmaking trail, something has to give. What trail gets pushed back or left off the list, because they still want Bear by Christmas and Sunrise ASAP after that.

It's a good thing, a positive thing some trails don't see snowmaking and remain natural. So it is written, so shall it be done.

[iRock]

...and of course there's usually a number of trails they skip over completely. This is why, while I'd love to see it...I don't see snowmaking returning on the Fiddle.

The Fiddle is an "If we have time" trail. And ask yourself this - If Great Bear is now an early season snowmaking trail, something has to give. What trail gets pushed back or left off the list, because they still want Bear by Christmas and Sunrise ASAP after that.

It's a good thing, a positive thing some trails don't see snowmaking and remain natural. So it is written, so shall it be done.

I agree. I like the variety year-to-year. I believe they left Vertigo natural all of last year? Kinda meh.

Honestly I wish they let Downdraft go natural every other year. Same with Upper/mid Ovation but that'll never happen.

[newpylong1]

No one is over 10K GPM in the Northeast besides Killington.

Stratton, Sunday River, Mount Snow and Loon are all at or close to that mark. Right behind them is Okemo and Stowe.

That said, yes Kilington is still undersized when you compare gallons/acre. A lot of it has to do with the distribution of that water as well instead of sheer pumping capacity.

They often do have trouble getting to everything in the season. Some of that is by choice, sometimes it's dictated by the type of season. In good snow years they don't cover Conclusion, Vertigo, etc. Conversely if it's a warm year they don't have time to cover them if they wanted.

Also the Fiddle is not an if we get to it trail, the pipes simply are inoperable. The last time it was charged in 2011 they said that was it until they're replaced. Too many blow outs and it's next to impossible to get a welder up there. Rip and replace.

There is quite a list of trails that either are frequently skipped or not used for various reasons:

Fiddle: pipes inoperable
Idler: never seen snow made on it but pipes/hydrants operable (main feed to Superstar)
Home Stretch: never seen them make snow on it since snowmaking was installed in '94.
Upper Dreammaker: stopped making snow after Lower Dreammaker became a park.
Touchdown: never seen them make snow on it since they were installed in '94. Wish they would, that lowest section of GE can get rough.
Conclusion: 2019-2020 first season of snowmaking in a while
Vertigo: sometimes they do sometimes they don't
Full House: this season was the first in a while they made snow on it in a while.

Flip side is we got Pipe Dream and Great Bear. They've also made snow on Middle Needles the last two years. Also prior to 1996 Ram's Head only had snowmaking on Header. Now the entire mountain has it. Other trails have been added like Cruise Control and snowmaking added to many others that lacked it.

At some point in the near future, and certainly prior to any interconnect I think they will upgrade pumping capacity and efficiency of distribution.

[snoloco]

Given the success of restoring snowmaking on Pipe Dream and Great Bear, I would hope that bodes well for returning it to other trails. Fiddle, Home Stretch, or Touch Down would be my top choices if I had to pick 3. Also, good point on how the snowmaking footprint has expanded over the years. Believe it or not, Upper East Fall didn't get snowmaking till around 1997. The trail maps back to the early 90's show which trails had snowmaking.

[iRock]

I'd like to see them just keep things as-is until they can make snow on most of everything...because as Newpy pointed out yeah there's the "typical" stuff they skip but there's a lot of other stuff that's just been abandoned. Like upper dream would be great with snowmaking... rocks and southern exposure don't mix...same with conclusion and vertigo. Home Stretch, too, would be a decent intermediate trail should they use the snowmaking and widen the ski tunnels.

But to do all that...they'd have to increase pumping capacity to get it done by February.

I also see a bigger impetus to increasing pumping capacity is the new Woodward brand Powdr is pushing. I'm sure it's a goal of K to someday be able to have Bear and the Timberline park on Ramshead both open by the start of the Christmas holiday. It's currently one or the other and opening bear first always wins but by the middle of December I feel kinda bad for the terrain park users who've been confined to the same 12 hits on Upper Mouse run for a month.... probably isn't a good look for the mountain when the parent company is pushing Woodward as a new "extreme" brand and doing a pretty good job of it.

[snoloco]

I think you missed the point. Yes, there are things that were deprioritized or even abandoned, but there were also trails where snowmaking was added, or restored. Ignoring those is revisionist history. A pumping capacity upgrade is necessary, and I have to think it should happen sometime in the near future. It will help both with the Woodward brand, and repeating the success of restoring snowmaking on Great Bear and Pipe Dream, by doing the same on other trails. Also, this is my first year as a Killington passholder. Previously I was going to Gore and Whiteface, which despite making recent improvements, still have very weak snowmaking. They will struggle to open entire sections of the mountain in bad years. Killington, despite the fact that they are not perfect, is lightyears ahead of those two. And they still cover more terrain with snowmaking in any given year than the resorts that you claim are better.

[Big Bob]

Changes in strategy due to changes in management? Jeff Temple has a new role and has been replaced.

[newpylong1]

Time will tell on that front. It certainly seems like a little different approach thus far this season. A new view on things isn't always the worst thing. There are so many ways to skin a cat.

I know post Bear new lodge, post Base Camp at Bear, and hopefully post East Basin snowmaking upgrades, I would love to see that side get a much earlier jump to the season.

[jimmywilson69]

For sure. Jeff was a beast in that position, but some new eyes/fresh blood isn't a bad thing. Plus when you get the temps they have had in the last week and through next week, you have A LOT of options to spread out on lower elevation terrain.

[hillbangin]

I think you missed the point. Yes, there are things that were deprioritized or even abandoned, but there were also trails where snowmaking was added, or restored. Ignoring those is revisionist history. A pumping capacity upgrade is necessary, and I have to think it should happen sometime in the near future. It will help both with the Woodward brand, and repeating the success of restoring snowmaking on Great Bear and Pipe Dream, by doing the same on other trails. Also, this is my first year as a Killington passholder. Previously I was going to Gore and Whiteface, which despite making recent improvements, still have very weak snowmaking. They will struggle to open entire sections of the mountain in bad years. Killington, despite the fact that they are not perfect, is lightyears ahead of those two. And they still cover more terrain with snowmaking in any given year than the resorts that you claim are better.

We have more than enough snowmaking.

Don't Killington the Fiddle or Conclusion or Dipper.

I'll take it for the few days a year that it's natural.

There's enough ice everywhere else.

[newpylong1]

That is one view, but it is not only bad optics but a poor utilization of terrain to have that much acreage only available a handful of times a season.

It is possible to thinly cover the trail with a man-made base and let it fill in for the rest of the year. But that requires moving the guns frequently not just leaving them there building "snow cones". I think all of those runs you mentioned are candidates for that approach. We did it every year with a similarly pitched/wide trail and it worked well. You wouldn't know the difference except the troughs of the bumps were snow instead of rocks or dirt.

[hillbangin]

That is one view, but it is not only bad optics but a poor utilization of terrain to have that much acreage only available a handful of times a season.

It is possible to thinly cover the trail with a man-made base and let it fill in for the rest of the year. But that requires moving the guns frequently not just leaving them there building "snow cones". I think all of those runs you mentioned are candidates for that approach. We did it every year with a similarly pitched/wide trail and it worked well. You wouldn't know the difference except the troughs of the bumps were snow instead of rocks or dirt.

I agree with this approach 100%. Make it once in January and leave it.

Very labor intensive though isn't it??