Killington Option Tax

[JerseyGuy]

FYI, there are a number of ski areas that now have more summer visitors than winter visitors, but that happened over a period of many years.

Which ski resorts pull more summer visitors than winter visitors?

[shortski]

One for sure Tremblant.

[JerseyGuy]

One for sure Tremblant.

OK, I'll buy that -- but with that village, they are certainly unique among their Eastern brethren.

Any others?

[Mister Moose]

One for sure Tremblant.

OK, I'll buy that -- but with that village, they are certainly unique among their Eastern brethren.

Any others?

Brodie, Hogback, Suicide Six

[Bubba]

I think Whistler and Aspen are in that category as well.

[RENO]

Suicide six? I can see Whistler and Aspen. Maybe Breckenridge and Stowe...

[SkiDork]

What about Stratton?

[JerseyGuy]

Got it. Maybe a couple of Western resorts; maybe a couple of small, more-southern ski areas. (I'd doubt Stowe's included on that list... the town does their own thing in summer and fall, but that's separate from the resort. Stratton's not a huge summer draw -- certainly not since tennis started to go south.)

Anybody closer to K-Mart's size and business model?

[Geoff]

Are we a ski resort town and always will be? Yes, but we also used to have a more robust summer business and that's what the town is trying to build. I suspect it will take at least several years to see whether what is being tried will work. My own opinion is that the town's efforts will also require village development and that the village's future success requires summer business. Neither can be successful without the other. FYI, there are a number of ski areas that now have more summer visitors than winter visitors, but that happened over a period of many years. Don't judge the town's success or failure until we get out at least several years.

This is revisionist history. Killington has always been a ghost town in the summer. The share house people would come up for trike race weekend and that was about it.

You can only push 300 people per day through a maxed out golf course. You can put 20,000 up on the hill during the winter. When they run mountain biking and touron rides on the K1, the parking lot is about as full as a rainy 40F April Wednesday.

Vermont does more tourist business in the summer than it does in the winter but Killington ain't exactly one o' the premier attractions. Killington doesn't have a quaint New England village. The Access Road is an eyesore and all the businesses are closed. If you build a *cough* village *cough*, the ski shops, bars, and restaurants in that village will slam shut the second the Snowshed lift stops spinning. That is not going to attract the tourons in the summer and the plans they have submitted are a joke compared to a true summer attraction like Whistler or Aspen.

If you put the ski season back to Halloween through June 1, that creates 7 months of business. Leaf season gives you another month. That's about all you can do and it creates a lot of value for existing vacation home owners and existing businesses. Spending tax money on summer events is just pissing it away. I'd rather see it fund October and May snowmaking. I'd rather see it fund an every 5 minute Access Road shuttle that runs while the lifts are spinning and go back to marketing the town as Bourbon Street North. It's foolish to use it as a jobs program for the well connected. I'd rather they either killed the tax entirely or used it to reduce local property taxes. If they're going to keep it, use it to build on what you have rather than fund hair-brained schemes to try to attract people to the eyesore of an Access Road in the summer.

[skiadikt]

FYI, there are a number of ski areas that now have more summer visitors than winter visitors, but that happened over a period of many years.

Which ski resorts pull more summer visitors than winter visitors?

pretty sure i've heard the vail ceo say that it's summer business is bigger than it's winter business.

[MrsG]

Jackson Hole for sure . . .

[Geoff]

Got it. Maybe a couple of Western resorts; maybe a couple of small, more-southern ski areas. (I'd doubt Stowe's included on that list... the town does their own thing in summer and fall, but that's separate from the resort. Stratton's not a huge summer draw -- certainly not since tennis started to go south.)

Anybody closer to K-Mart's size and business model?

In the east? No. Sunday River is like Killington. Completely dead all summer. Ditto Loon, Waterville, Sugarloaf, Okemo, Stratton, Mount Snow....

Stowe does fine but that has nothing to do with the ski area since the town has a "nice New England feel". There are also many locals who commute to Burlington jobs, telecommute, or just hang out as wealthy retireees & trustafarians so more local businesses can justify staying open. Nobody else is close enough to a job market to behave like that.

Whistler does not do more summer business than winter business. They see 2 million skier visits. You can't duplicate that with cruise ship tourons driving up the Sea to Sky for a day, summer camps on the glacier serviced by a couple of surface lifts, one golf course that can service around 250 golfers per day, and the small amount of people who hike & mountian bike. They might see a tenth of the traffic in the summer compared to the winter.

Tahoe is busier in the summer than in the winter. Every touron in California drives around that lake. ...but that's like saying Vermont does more tourist business in the summer than ski business in the winter. It doesn't benefit the ski areas and has minimal benefit to the slopeside businesses. The 'ski cabins' are mostly shuttered up at Squaw and Alpine Meadows.

[RENO]

Got it. Maybe a couple of Western resorts; maybe a couple of small, more-southern ski areas. (I'd doubt Stowe's included on that list... the town does their own thing in summer and fall, but that's separate from the resort. Stratton's not a huge summer draw -- certainly not since tennis started to go south.)

Anybody closer to K-Mart's size and business model?

I'm pretty much talking about the towns of Stowe and Breckenridge, not the resorts. Same with Aspen. No way summer/fall business at the resort itself can match the ski business. Whistler might come close because they have awesome mountain biking and summer glacier skiing and camps...

[Bubba]

Are we a ski resort town and always will be? Yes, but we also used to have a more robust summer business and that's what the town is trying to build. I suspect it will take at least several years to see whether what is being tried will work. My own opinion is that the town's efforts will also require village development and that the village's future success requires summer business. Neither can be successful without the other. FYI, there are a number of ski areas that now have more summer visitors than winter visitors, but that happened over a period of many years. Don't judge the town's success or failure until we get out at least several years.

This is revisionist history. Killington has always been a ghost town in the summer. The share house people would come up for trike race weekend and that was about it.

You can only push 300 people per day through a maxed out golf course. You can put 20,000 up on the hill during the winter. When they run mountain biking and touron rides on the K1, the parking lot is about as full as a rainy 40F April Wednesday.

Vermont does more tourist business in the summer than it does in the winter but Killington ain't exactly one o' the premier attractions. Killington doesn't have a quaint New England village. The Access Road is an eyesore and all the businesses are closed. If you build a *cough* village *cough*, the ski shops, bars, and restaurants in that village will slam shut the second the Snowshed lift stops spinning. That is not going to attract the tourons in the summer and the plans they have submitted are a joke compared to a true summer attraction like Whistler or Aspen.

If you put the ski season back to Halloween through June 1, that creates 7 months of business. Leaf season gives you another month. That's about all you can do and it creates a lot of value for existing vacation home owners and existing businesses. Spending tax money on summer events is just pissing it away. I'd rather see it fund October and May snowmaking. I'd rather see it fund an every 5 minute Access Road shuttle that runs while the lifts are spinning and go back to marketing the town as Bourbon Street North. It's foolish to use it as a jobs program for the well connected. I'd rather they either killed the tax entirely or used it to reduce local property taxes. If they're going to keep it, use it to build on what you have rather than fund hair-brained schemes to try to attract people to the eyesore of an Access Road in the summer.

What revisionist history? That it had a more robust summer business than it does today does in no way suggest that their summer business was even close to their winter business. But Killington had a lot more Floridians, plus events such as the horse show, etc. and those events contributed to summer revenues for Killington's lodging business and those access road businesses that were open. Clearly they need to return to a longer season and reduce the down time they have now but I don't think anyone is counting on that happening any time soon.

As i said, I have my doubts about how the EDT is spending the new tax money but I'm willing to give them some room to try.

[Geoff]

Are we a ski resort town and always will be? Yes, but we also used to have a more robust summer business and that's what the town is trying to build. I suspect it will take at least several years to see whether what is being tried will work. My own opinion is that the town's efforts will also require village development and that the village's future success requires summer business. Neither can be successful without the other. FYI, there are a number of ski areas that now have more summer visitors than winter visitors, but that happened over a period of many years. Don't judge the town's success or failure until we get out at least several years.

This is revisionist history. Killington has always been a ghost town in the summer. The share house people would come up for trike race weekend and that was about it.

You can only push 300 people per day through a maxed out golf course. You can put 20,000 up on the hill during the winter. When they run mountain biking and touron rides on the K1, the parking lot is about as full as a rainy 40F April Wednesday.

Vermont does more tourist business in the summer than it does in the winter but Killington ain't exactly one o' the premier attractions. Killington doesn't have a quaint New England village. The Access Road is an eyesore and all the businesses are closed. If you build a *cough* village *cough*, the ski shops, bars, and restaurants in that village will slam shut the second the Snowshed lift stops spinning. That is not going to attract the tourons in the summer and the plans they have submitted are a joke compared to a true summer attraction like Whistler or Aspen.

If you put the ski season back to Halloween through June 1, that creates 7 months of business. Leaf season gives you another month. That's about all you can do and it creates a lot of value for existing vacation home owners and existing businesses. Spending tax money on summer events is just pissing it away. I'd rather see it fund October and May snowmaking. I'd rather see it fund an every 5 minute Access Road shuttle that runs while the lifts are spinning and go back to marketing the town as Bourbon Street North. It's foolish to use it as a jobs program for the well connected. I'd rather they either killed the tax entirely or used it to reduce local property taxes. If they're going to keep it, use it to build on what you have rather than fund hair-brained schemes to try to attract people to the eyesore of an Access Road in the summer.

What revisionist history? That it had a more robust summer business than it does today does in no way suggest that their summer business was even close to their winter business. But Killington had a lot more Floridians, plus events such as the horse show, etc. and those events contributed to summer revenues for Killington's lodging business and those access road businesses that were open. Clearly they need to return to a longer season and reduce the down time they have now but I don't think anyone is counting on that happening any time soon.

As i said, I have my doubts about how the EDT is spending the new tax money but I'm willing to give them some room to try.

Nope. Revisionist history. I would be amazed if Killington did more summer business in, say, 1988 than they did last summer. The place was a freakin' ghost town. There are a lot more retirees up here now. There are also telecommuters and those people didn't exist in 1988. The K1 moves far more people in the summer than the K double ever did and the original Killington gondola only did scenic rides during leaf season. My condo complex has the same number of Floridians as when I first bought here. They're only around for 2 months and they don't spend much money. Other than the Gatsby Party, the Wobbly & Pickle Barrel were closed for 6 months. The only food was the Grease Mill and Choices on a 3-day schedule. There's actually more open now than back then.