johnny the jibber wrote:you have absolutely no idea how much it costs to run anything up there. none what so ever...
My point was:
...Poeple wont mind the missing money for Improvements, people would rather just get a fixed bathroom then a new high speed quad and more snowguns...
do we really need a new quad? you really want a colder faster lift ride? you like sitting on the rams head chair when temps are sub zero and your hauling ass up the hill into the wind...feels good doesnt it?
dont go throwing figures around, when you have nothing to back it up...
You are comparing like 4mph to 7mph, your not going fast enough to create a breeze. On a windless day, a hsq isn't windy for you to ride!! On cold, windy days, Its much better to ride a fast lift, then an old slow one...
You're acting like the lifts are so fast its like your sitting in front of a fan. False, in my opinion.
skiingsnow wrote:
Most of their customer base does not care about skiing in Late April and later. You are asking the resort to say, F*CK YOU to 95% of the people that gave Killington their hard earned money to ski, and with the promise to put the profits into Killington and Pico, and to say yes to 5% of the people, to now lose some of that money, to provide a very small segment of people something that wasn't for sale.
Instead of spending $8.4 million in improvements this summer, how about spending $8.3 million and extend the season into May. I'm sure the 95% of the people you talk about wouldn't mind Powdr diverting a meager 1.2% of planned expenditures to keep the other faithful 5% happy. Who knows, some of those 95% might even show up.
Well, you could have said the same thing about them opening a week late. Just open a week earlier its only $15,000 less profit...
Just Keep Skyeship open 7 days, its only another $35,000 less profits....
Just Keep Pico open 7 days, its only another $60,000 in less profits...
Lets have every base serve food daily! Its only another $20,000 less in profits...
Lets double the snowmaking staff, the grooming staff, and all other mtn ops people, to keep everything in tip top shape, and be 100% open right after ice events! Its only $35,000 in less profits...
...Poeple wont mind the missing money for Improvements, people would rather just get a fixed bathroom then a new high speed quad and more snowguns...
Ok, let's take your numbers and add them to the $100K or so theorized to stay open into May. That's $250K, the exact amount of money Powdr was willing to give to the town of Killington if they did not institute the 1% option tax.
skiingsnow wrote:
Most of their customer base does not care about skiing in Late April and later. You are asking the resort to say, F*CK YOU to 95% of the people that gave Killington their hard earned money to ski, and with the promise to put the profits into Killington and Pico, and to say yes to 5% of the people, to now lose some of that money, to provide a very small segment of people something that wasn't for sale.
Instead of spending $8.4 million in improvements this summer, how about spending $8.3 million and extend the season into May. I'm sure the 95% of the people you talk about wouldn't mind Powdr diverting a meager 1.2% of planned expenditures to keep the other faithful 5% happy. Who knows, some of those 95% might even show up.
Well, you could have said the same thing about them opening a week late. Just open a week earlier its only $15,000 less profit...
Just Keep Skyeship open 7 days, its only another $35,000 less profits....
Just Keep Pico open 7 days, its only another $60,000 in less profits...
Lets have every base serve food daily! Its only another $20,000 less in profits...
Lets double the snowmaking staff, the grooming staff, and all other mtn ops people, to keep everything in tip top shape, and be 100% open right after ice events! Its only $35,000 in less profits...
...Poeple wont mind the missing money for Improvements, people would rather just get a fixed bathroom then a new high speed quad and more snowguns...
Ok, let's take your numbers and add them to the $100K or so theorized to stay open into May. That's $250K, the exact amount of money Powdr was willing to give to the town of Killington if they did not institute the 1% option tax.
Yeah, and instead of a one time payement of $250,000 (and somethin another about further payements if enough places participate in optional tax. etc) They now will have to pay over (I believe w/o relooking it up again) $300,000 Every year.
skiingsnow wrote:
Yeah, and instead of a one time payement of $250,000 (and somethin another about further payements if enough places participate in optional tax. etc) They now will have to pay over (I believe w/o relooking it up again) $300,000 Every year.
If I understand correctly, that would imply Powdr receives over $30,000,000 in meals, rooms, alcohol and retail sales.
I bet most the 1% tax will be passed on to the consumer, so Powdr itself will actually pay very little, not $300K.
skiingsnow wrote:
Yeah, and instead of a one time payement of $250,000 (and somethin another about further payements if enough places participate in optional tax. etc) They now will have to pay over (I believe w/o relooking it up again) $300,000 Every year.
If I understand correctly, that would imply Powdr receives over $30,000,000 in meals, rooms, alcohol and retail sales.
I bet most the 1% tax will be passed on to the consumer, so Powdr itself will actually pay very little, not $300K.
Killington had over $57.6 Million in resort income for fy 06.
So, Powdr would actually probably be paying $400,000 - $500,000.... The whole tax, I believe, would bring in around a million dollars from the tax collected in Killington, then 35% goes to vt.
They would have to end up raising prices by even numbers just for this tax, day tickets up $1, foods up $.50, and such, all making them less attractive for people to buy...
One thing left out of the Money equation for Killington and opening/closing early/late. They do get INCOME. Maybe not enough to cover costs, but it is not a complete negative draw. And this time of year, as other areas close, the ski and stay packages actually sell so people buy tickets, food and BEER.
Dr. NO wrote:One thing left out of the Money equation for Killington and opening/closing early/late. They do get INCOME. Maybe not enough to cover costs, but it is not a complete negative draw. And this time of year, as other areas close, the ski and stay packages actually sell so people buy tickets, food and BEER.
Absolutely.
I think the argument against a traditional season length is:
1) it is expensive to operate the resort into May (or June)
2) the money is better off re-invested in the resort
3) only a very few number of customers desire late season skiing
But it appears it costs just a few hundred thousand to run the resort in a limited mode to extend the season - a drop in the bucket compared to the well advertised $8.4 million in scheduled improvements. Customers from other areas do come to Killington after their home mountain closes, representing immediate revenue and potential future K customers. Hundreds of season pass holder visits result in late season dollars for the region and these customers continue to purchase season passes year after year.
As already well stated, the late season is really about customers – making new ones and keeping the current ones. But a traditionally long season is not part of the vision for the "New Killington" and IMHO, that’s a shame.
The analysis that has to be run for running the lifts into May is simply margin over variable cost. As long as revenue covers or exceeds the variable cost of operation, the lifts should turn. If they're not covering variable costs, they either have to look at the intangible benefits of operation, i.e. marketing, brand establishment, etc., or cease operation because it doesn't make economic sense. Blowing extra snow on Superstar in order to remain open has to be factored into variable costs, thus ASC in recent years didn't blow as much snow and didn't stay open. Prior to their operation in near Ch. 11 condition, they felt (as did Pres Smith) that the value of the brand was worth the cost.
The problem now is that new ownership has no understanding of the value of the brand and apparently looks strictly at the numbers. Seemingly unaware of what it takes to compete in the east, and seemingly unaware of history, culture, the brand and its value, they make decisions out of Utah based on what they know from operating western ski areas. Arrogantly ignoring what people who've been here for years tell them, they move along toward their vision of what a ski area is without any understanding of the ramifications of their decisions. Ignorance and arrogance - a wonderful combination. Couple that with their communication skills and you end up with the PR and community relations mess they have today.
"Abandon hope all ye who enter here"
Killington Zone
You can checkout any time you like,
but you can never leave
"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function" =
F. Scott Fitzgerald
"There's nothing more frightening than ignorance in action" - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Bubba wrote:The analysis that has to be run for running the lifts into May is simply margin over variable cost. As long as revenue covers or exceeds the variable cost of operation, the lifts should turn. If they're not covering variable costs, they either have to look at the intangible benefits of operation, i.e. marketing, brand establishment, etc., or cease operation because it doesn't make economic sense. Blowing extra snow on Superstar in order to remain open has to be factored into variable costs, thus ASC in recent years didn't blow as much snow and didn't stay open. Prior to their operation in near Ch. 11 condition, they felt (as did Pres Smith) that the value of the brand was worth the cost.
The problem now is that new ownership has no understanding of the value of the brand and apparently looks strictly at the numbers. Seemingly unaware of what it takes to compete in the east, and seemingly unaware of history, culture, the brand and its value, they make decisions out of Utah based on what they know from operating western ski areas. Arrogantly ignoring what people who've been here for years tell them, they move along toward their vision of what a ski area is without any understanding of the ramifications of their decisions. Ignorance and arrogance - a wonderful combination. Couple that with their communication skills and you end up with the PR and community relations mess they have today.
buzzkill wrote:Don't be too surprised if they spin SS4 another week.
Opening one week at a time is great for those that MAY be there, but if you do not state you will be open a few weeks in advance, only those that HOPE you will be open will be there, and they ain't buying tickets. To expand the season, they had to commit beyond the 20th BEFORE people believed that is the date.
If I can, I'll go NOrth to the Bush, MRG, Jay or over to Maine my last weekend. Maybe even SNOW if it is still open.
Bubba wrote:The analysis that has to be run for running the lifts into May is simply margin over variable cost. As long as revenue covers or exceeds the variable cost of operation, the lifts should turn. If they're not covering variable costs, they either have to look at the intangible benefits of operation, i.e. marketing, brand establishment, etc., or cease operation because it doesn't make economic sense. Blowing extra snow on Superstar in order to remain open has to be factored into variable costs, thus ASC in recent years didn't blow as much snow and didn't stay open. Prior to their operation in near Ch. 11 condition, they felt (as did Pres Smith) that the value of the brand was worth the cost.
The problem now is that new ownership has no understanding of the value of the brand and apparently looks strictly at the numbers. Seemingly unaware of what it takes to compete in the east, and seemingly unaware of history, culture, the brand and its value, they make decisions out of Utah based on what they know from operating western ski areas. Arrogantly ignoring what people who've been here for years tell them, they move along toward their vision of what a ski area is without any understanding of the ramifications of their decisions. Ignorance and arrogance - a wonderful combination. Couple that with their communication skills and you end up with the PR and community relations mess they have today.
